Not all who belay can belay

MJMobes wrote: I disagree, its the exact same type of mechanism

You clearly need to learn more about seat belts, how they work (i.e. the "mechanism"), and what they're rated to do.

Would you like to share your vast seatbelt knowledge with the class?

David Sahalie wrote:Greg , the gri, like a seatbelt, is not an 'age old contract', it is a redundant device that takes the human instant response factor out. I also used to be really good at timing pumping my brakes while sliding on ice, now I rely on ABS. Skill set lost? Sure . But the end result is that I stop better with technology than relying on human response, even my own .

There have been many occasions where the gri gri did not lock on the rope NOT because of the belayer holding the gri gri wrong but it just did not lock. Petzl has changed their instruction as a result. They also changed the concept from "auto locking" to "lock assist" for a reason. I was dropped to within a foot of the deck not long ago with a gri gri. It simply did not lock on a 10.1 rope. If my belayer was trained to just let go, I would have decked for sure. Instead, he was trained to never let go of the brake. He grabbed the brake and arrested my fall just before I broke my legs. There are countless stories of the gri gri not locking for various reasons.

ABS analogy would make sense if you taught drivers to simply take your foot off the brake if you are in a panic. Then, the ABS will magically stop the car for you. Terrible analogy.

It is so clear to me now.

Those who can barely climb a vertical face and who top out at 5.10 are of course the masters on how to catch repeated falls safely. Clearly they have the most experience on catching big whips, where better to practice this lost art than a granite slab where falling is not an option? Those sport wieners who constantly are catching falls, all day, sometimes as many as 20 in a day, know nothing. They are just getting lucky every time that Gri-Gri locks up. Gri Gri's fail, um kayyy!!!

Been climbing since 1991.
Climbed all over the country
climbed all over the world
Climbed hard sport and chuffy trad.
Used ATC's and Gri-Gri's
Seen at least five people eat dirt:
Four due to incompetent belaying, one due to a pulled piece.
All four belayers were using something other than a Gri-Gri
One was a guide and sponsored climber using a Reverso.
I have never seen someone dropped on a Gri-gri, though I know the two ways that it can occur:
1. Small climbers being smashed into the first bolt, though that usually only results in a small drop with no dirt nap at the end.
2. Idiot climbers holding down the cam when it is trying to engage.

Greg D wrote: I was dropped to within a foot of the deck not long ago with a gri gri. It simply did not lock on a 10.1 rope. .

Yea right. Had you been using a small diameter rope I would have given you the benefit of the doubt, but there is absolutely no way a 10.1 (lol) rope slipped through a gri after a fall. Sorry. It's going to be really difficult to feed that pig through that device let alone slip free. If the Belayers hands were on the break how did this ever happen? Perhaps your "friend" is the one who is lying about what happened? Much more likely than the scenario you just described.

The scary thing about the all knowing men who use ATC's and climb mediocre is that they do not catch many falls and therefore are not as experienced as those who regularly catch falls. This crowd even comes up with convoluted arguments as to why their old and potentially dangerous equipment is actually preferable and safer than the Gri. To be fair, some of these old men with ATC are the best belayers in the world, soft catches, attentive belays, etc, but just as many of them only have a unfounded belief in their own infallibility; and that is why this is a dangerous crowd. Usually an experienced climber does not top out at 5.10.

Would I let David belay me? Sure, just as long as he let's go of the device when I fall.

I would prefer a good belay though.

Debated ad nauseum within industrial, no device has shown itself fool-proof.

nicelegs wrote:Loads of climbers claim 20+ years of experience. In that time, they've logged a couple hundred days and caught a few dozen whippers. Then they call out noobs who have climbed 200 days of the past 4 years and catch a dozen falls almost each of those days.

many of those with a ton of experience that dont whip much anymore spent a few of those years wanking & whipping around sport crags and sporty trad areas like IC while fully baked and fighting with their partners over whose rope was going to get pummeled into a frayed 200' rubber band that wont untie without a pair of pliers. bowline bro!

The following is copied from Petzl website and edited only for ease of reading pertient to this thread,unfortunately the illustrations did not copy so please go to Petzl's sitre for the full intructions. Please note the sections with ***** and !!!!

The Product Experience is a supplement to the information in the Instructions For Use and is inseparable from the Instructions For Use.

IMPORTANT / REMEMBER

Read the Instructions For Use (pdf - 3 Mb) carefully before looking at the following techniques.
You must have already read and understood the information in the Instructions For Use to be able to understand this supplementary information.
Mastering these techniques requires specific training.
Work with a professional to confirm your ability to perform these techniques safely and independently before attempting them unsupervised.

FAILURE TO HEED ANY OF THESE WARNINGS MAY RESULT
IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH

Today, GRIGRI use is widespread. It can be found at crags, gyms, and in the mountains... Used mainly as a belay device, it has other uses that are explained below.

WARNING, as with all climbing and mountaineering activities, it is essential to master the techniques and understand the limitations on using this product in these activities. Practice the techniques presented in a safe environment before using them in a real situation.

Both GRIGRI are compatible with single dynamic ropes (CE EN 892). Only the approved rope diameters differ. WARNING, even if you use a rope in the approved diameter range, you must be vigilant concerning the functioning of the GRIGRI with this rope.

The compatibility between the GRIGRI and the rope used is dependent on more than just the rope’s diameter. The rope’s texture, sheath treatments on new ropes, moisture, the state of wear, and ice play an important role in the performance of your GRIGRI, in belaying, and also in descending.

Whenever you need to use a rope other than your usual rope, take care and familiarize yourself with its behavior with the GRIGRI in belaying and descending.

Belaying / protecting

Giving Slack
The index finger supports the GRIGRI
The thumb presses on the cam

This action must be momentary. Once the leader has clipped, your hand must return to the primary belaying position. Continuous contact with the device can lead to misuse.

• ****This technique allows the braking side of the rope to always be held by the hand (with at least three fingers) and it limits the risk of blocking the cam’s action.********
• ****We place great emphasis on the need to hold the braking side of the rope.

But why?******

!!!!!!The term “belay device with assisted braking,” which describes the GRIGRI, indicates that it is not an autolocking device. In fact, you may notice that if you slide your rope slowly through the device (especially for small diameter rope), it does not necessarily lock, and the rope slides freely through it. It’s when you pull the braking side of the rope that the cam rotates to brake the rope!!!!!!

It is also important to stress the fact that any blocking of the device or the cam will negate the braking action on the rope. This is why it is essential to avoid: grasping the device with your whole hand, keeping your thumb permanently on the cam, blocking the cam, etc.

Note that the use of incorrect belay technique is the primary risk factor in an accident, especially when the belayer is surprised by a fall.

2- Bad reflexes
When a person is surprised while holding an object in the hand, one of the first reflexes is to hold that object more tightly. Imagine this situation in the case of a belayer holding a GRIGRI with the whole hand, at the moment the climber falls...

In this case, the belayer clenches the GRIGRI, without holding the braking side of the rope, and the climber falls to the ground.

Another bad belayer reflex is to grip the climber’s side of the rope.

In this case, the belayer burns his hand with the rope and worse, prevents the GRIGRI’s cam from rotating, which then cannot brake the rope. Here also, the climber falls to the ground.

3- Belayer inattention: The belayer is talking, looking elsewhere...
Look at this example: the belayer, hands in pockets, is not at all attentive to the climber, who is in the process of clipping with far too much slack...

To finish, ground falls are often the result of multiple factors: poor technique, inattention, etc. It is up to you to limit these factors.

Dynamic belaying

Some think it is difficult to belay dynamically with the GRIGRI. But it is the belayer, not the belay device, that plays the primary role in dynamic belaying.

The key to dynamic belaying: step or make a small jump forward when the climber falls. We also stress that dynamic belaying does not mean keeping 3-4 m of slack in the climber’s side of the rope: this does not reduce the force of a fall. In addition, in the case where the climber has not gained enough height, it increases the risk of a ground fall.

In any case, it is necessary to be attentive and vigilant while belaying, so that potential falls can be anticipated. Remember that where there is a risk of a ground fall, or striking a ledge, a dynamic belay should not be used. It takes practice to master dynamic belaying.

If you have read this far go to Petzl's website and view the entire instruction pdf with illustrations.

Which is still mostly used for convenience & the fact most sport falls are pretty safe. Bold TextDo I need to remind you IFSC has forbidden grigris for comp belaying? If I absolutely need to give a good belay for a sketchy gear route (which isn't that often), the ATC comes out. It's that simple.

This is awesome to hear. I hate this new thought of "i'm going sport or trad climbing better grab my gri-gri" I don't care who you are you can't give as good of a catch with a gri-gri. I have seen so many people try, there's always that one time they short rope some one, or cant give them enough slack to pass a roof or ledge.

you must see a lot of high end climbing in Minnesota, thanks for taking the time out of pro circuit to write in from your vast knowledge on how Gris are so so dangerous

ATCs are used in Comps for speed of feeding out slack. I won't argue that ATCs are better at this.

MJMobes wrote: its a useless conversation/argument on Mtn Proj Dave, these guys have safety figured out to a T and you and I are dangerous rebels. what I'd like to see is everyone's personal record of days on the rock vs accidents caused by the belay on the rope they were sharing with someone. call it a penis comparison if you like, I'll go first- 2000-2500 days on the rock, zero accidents(at least 100 days with total n00bs)

still cant get over you "penis size" can you now ... says the guy with a moderate to to trad list ... i noticed most of your "pics are from bouldering =P

just because you drive drunk for the last 10 years and havent got into any accident doesnt men yr a safe drivah and wont kill anyone

this is the kind thread im talking about exactly people like you who "i know how to belay safely, i teach newbs to LET GO OF THE ROPE"

you cant even be bothered to teach you newb PROPER BRAKE HAND TECHNIQUE ... and these newbs will now run off and climb with others thinking that they just need to let go of the rope

PETZL made a video just for ya now

vimeo.com/80489871#at=0

;)

David Sahalie wrote:ATCs are used in Comps for speed of feeding out slack. I won't argue that ATCs are better at this.

No, it got banned after one of the climbers broke her wrist during a fall, on a route with multiple tiered roofs. There was a video of it. The belayer actually did a pretty good job giving her a soft catch (jumped pretty high off the ground), but the locked Grigri prevented him from letting enough rope out for her to clear one of the roofs.

I myself have caught one of my partners a bit too hard & make him slam into the wall recently. Yes I jumped up, but I had 10-15 lbs on him & when someone takes a long fall high enough off the ground, especially with some weight difference, the little bit of dynamic belay trickery isn't enough (the high fall force occurs over too long of an interval for the jump to be completely effective).

One of the best catch I've ever gotten (on gear) was from a pretty badass alpinist (someone who FA routes on the Cerro Torre, not your weekend snow hiker) with an ATC. I took a sizable fall & barely felt the rope. Some time later when I went back to RP, belayed by a buddy w/ grigri, the same piece actually ripped off the crack.

Now I think these aren't common cases, but they do happen and a self-locking device just doesn't give you the same flexibility for the best belay possible.

J Q wrote:Yea right. Had you been using a small diameter rope I would have given you the benefit of the doubt, but there is absolutely no way a 10.1 (lol) rope slipped through a gri after a fall. Sorry. It's going to be really difficult to feed that pig through that device let alone slip free. If the Belayers hands were on the break how did this ever happen? Perhaps your "friend" is the one who is lying about what happened? Much more likely than the scenario you just described.

a brand new slick supple tendon ambition 10.2mm can slip through gri gri 1 ... EVEN WHEN THERE IS NO HAND ON THE CAM ... beals can be equally as slick

heres an actual accident where a beal 10.2mm slipped with no hand on the cam ...

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

So I got dropped 60 feet. Who or what should I blame.

The basic details were:

I was leading a sport route and fell when a foothold broke.

I fell right at a bolt.

My partner was using a grigri that was perhaps 10 years old.

The rope was a brand new Beal 10.2 with a dry coat.

My partner did manage to grab the rope just before I hit the ground so the impact was slightly less than it could have been - no broken bones, but major knee damage.

My partner claims that he wasnt blocking the grigri open.

One more note on the rope, it was very slippery and I found it difficult to hold onto when rapping on earlier routes.
My partner had caught a fall on a previous route with the same situation.


with the advent of thinner ropes supple ropes ... the gri gri should NOT be considered autolocking on thin slick supple ropes

;)

On another thread about belaying on MP I regretfully dissed the GriGri and its users......

But it got me thinking about how some folks are so adamant in its defense.

Mostly I bitched about its mass and how its stupid it is to carry around a big heavy deal that is only good for belaying and how its sort of hard to use properly,esp in the hands of noobs.

But I have had a change of heart, I grabbed my friends Grig and still havent returned it.

Its the best, you don't need to hold it all the time so you can use your hands for other things, like fixing the rope, lighting up a smoke, drinking water etc...and you really dont need to watch your climber (unless its sport climbing and you don't wish to short rope your partner) ..... just keep the little slack loop the correct size.

Partner falls, loop is gone, grig is pulled tight.... the BELAY is ON.

For trad slab climbing its the best .... if you need to run down hill to keep em from decking, just forget about your hands and run like hell... OR if you sometimes like to unhook from the anchor, so you can be ready to jump off if need be, it works really well ( I havent done the later trick in a few seasons, but I know it will do the job.)

But I do have some questions to ask the folks who know about these things.

The Grigri - Original model (thats what I have been using) whats the smallest size rope that it will work -well with? ( I know the MFG has a size but I am looking for experience )

and

The Model #2 looks to be make out of cheap materials and just dosn't inspire much confidence. Any experiences good or bad with this one?

And to answer the OP.... some belayers I see at the popular spots are looking to kill something.

John Wilder wrote: Sounds like the belayer at the comp shouldn't have been belaying. Fascinating that the IFSC would change a rule about a belay device because some tool gave a crappy catch.

I'd like to see you try...Actually, I don't, I know what will happen. Fascinating that a nobody thinks he's better than the IFSC.

John Wilder wrote:Like the ATC would have made a difference. I'm not sure where one gets the impression that an atc is better because its not self-locking and you can therefore feed slack out during a fall. What makes you think you cant do the same thing with a grigri?

Because you can actually feather the angle of the rope to let rope slip through while still absorbing some of the fall force? How the hell do you do that with a grigri? Pinch the cam open & use it as an ATC???

Greg D wrote: There have been many occasions where the gri gri did not lock on the rope NOT because of the belayer holding the gri gri wrong but it just did not lock.

I call complete BS on this one Greg... sorry man but pls explain to me how the rope continues to feed through the grigri when you're holding the breaking end and the climber is falling... I'll hang out and wait for a plausible explanation. The answer is it's impossible unless your belayer is preventing the brake from locking. The above link is clearly belayer fault... not a slippery rope. I had one of those once... it slid in an ATC horribly on rappel and belay. Plugged it into my grigri 1 and no slippage.

So PA'LEASE playa...

Guy - Been using the grigri 1 for 15 years or so... im very comfortable with a 9.8mm in the 1 even though it's rated to 10mm. I have a 2 but I don't use it... its bomber but I just like the feel of my old one better all around (except weight). Feeds super well and 0 issues locking. Another GriGri + is when/if you're belayer gets knocked out you still have a catch. Love to hear someone try to argue why an ATC would be better in that case...

Guy Keesee wrote: But I do have some questions to ask the folks who know about these things. The Grigri - Original model (thats what I have been using) whats the smallest size rope that it will work -well with? ( I know the MFG has a size but I am looking for experience ) and The Model #2 looks to be make out of cheap materials and just dosn't inspire much confidence. Any experiences good or bad with this one? And to answer the OP.... some belayers I see at the popular spots are looking to kill something.

depends on the rope ... and your definition of "work"

slick and supple rope dont lock up as easily as a stiffer rope of the same "diameter"

for example it will hold fairly reliably on a tendon smart 10mm ...

10mm tendon smart gri gri 1

but it can slip fairly easily on a tendon ambition 10.2mm even under body weight ...

tendon ambition 10.2mm gri gri 1

for mammuts and maxim im fine using it down to the 9.5 mm level as those have stiff handling especially as they get worn

for anything else, i wont go lower than 9.7/8mm

of course NONE are "hands free" especially with slick supple new rope with dry coating ...

the other thing to note is that the UIAA allows up to +/- 0.3mm from the stated rope diameter (changed this fall to 0.2mm)

UIAA rope test standards

so really ... the "stated" diameter of the rope can be quite off

;)

Since we are all having fun cock-punching each other over belay device choices…

I use a gri-gri 100% of the time on sport routes. Period. All this BS about "device failure" and perceived shortcomings pale in comparison top added safety benefits. Period. If you don't see this, then you are blind.

When climbing on gear, I sometimes prefer an atc. On soft rock or routes with questionable placements, the reduced impact force of the atc gives me some added peace of mind.

Regardless of the device, the primary factor in a good / safe belay is the belayer. I am picky about who I let belay me. If I am really pushing (especially on gear), there are only 3 or 4 people I want on the other end of the rope. Belaying is a skill, and not everyone has the same level of expertise.

bearbreeder wrote: with the advent of thinner ropes supple ropes ... the gri gri should NOT be considered autolocking on thin slick supple ropes ;)

Please just stop with this nonsense... so if I'm using a 10mm rope in an orig grigri (or a 9.8mm on a 2) I should not consider it an autolocking device cause it won't autolock? Or are you maybe trying to say that if you use the device with a rope (not in spec) with mfg guidance and smaller then rated for the device the performance will not be as expected? This is obvious no?

Either way really, this is just stupid, if you're holding the brake end with your hand and the device is clear it is impossible for the device not to lock on the rope, PERIOD. Arguing otherwise is really stupid. This whole no hand thing is stupid to... its like herion, just don't do it.

The Phoenix wrote: Please just stop with this nonsense... so if I'm using a 10mm rope in an orig grigri (or a 9.8mm on a 2) I should not consider it an autolocking device cause it won't autolock? Or are you maybe trying to say that if you use the device with a rope (not in spec) with mfg guidance and smaller then rated for the device the performance will not be as expected? This obvious no, and isn't the device its your stupid ass expecting something when your misusing a product, right? Either way really, this is just stupid, if you're holding the brake end with your hand and the device is clear it is impossible for the device not to lock on the rope, PERIOD. Arguing otherwise is really stupid.

PETZL themselves indicate that the device is NOT hands free for ANY size rooe

The postered i answered askes for REAL experience with a gri gri one, he already knows the manufacturers recommendations

As to "stupid" and holding the brake side

Didnt you notice the multiple MPer saying its A-OK to let go of the rope when the climber falls ... In fact thats how they "teach" newbs on a gri gri ... And 12 year olds

;)

bearbreeder wrote: but it can slip fairly easily on a tendon ambition 10.2mm even under body weight ...

You got any video to prove this??? Would love to see a locked gri gri with rope slipping through it under body weight.... please just post it up! Be sure to confirm that 10.2 dia in the vid too...