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Not all who belay can belay

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

I dont understand why anyone who is cragging would not want the added measure of safety that a grigri///auto locker provides. I've seen some big ass rocks come down that would squish a helmet and break a neck.

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
James Hicks wrote:Seemed relevant... youtube.com/watch?v=V9hsWjA…
Funny. Maybe the funniest is at 6:05.

They tried to simulate a non camming Gri Gri because of stupid belayer incident but it cammed like it always does and they had to switch shots.

I know you give a soft catch with an atc, but something tells me you would get tired of that wasted effort after a while if you did it all the time, just like myself and most other habitual fixtures at the crag.

I loved ATC's too, until I learned how to use a Gri Gri.

That being said, I am not advocating for putting you in camps, yet; now I just avoid any type of working belay situation for both our sakes.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Anyone who thinks soft catches are a myth doesnt whip over and over again at their limit on "hard" sport routes

I will not climb with anyone who does not know how to give a soft catch or refuses to when its appropriate

Nor someone who knows how to give minimal slack and sitting into the catch to prevent a decking when needed

People get hurt all the time by belayers not knowing how to give a soft catch .... I know of at least half a dozen personally

If you dont believe in soft catches ... Come to squamish and i will give you a hard catch on a certain climb .... After getting your ankle tweaked youll believe in soft catches

As for grigris ... The intrawebs and ANAM is littered with examples of people being dropped on one .... It is NOT a hands free device

And im a big fan of ASSISTED locking deviced

;)

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
bearbreeder wrote:Anyone who thinks soft catches are a myth doesnt whip over and over again at their limit on "hard" sport routes I will not climb with anyone who does not know how to give a soft catch or refuses to when its appropriate Nor someone who knows how to give minimal slack and sitting into the catch to prevent a decking when needed People get hurt all the time by belayers not knowing how to give a soft catch .... I know of at least half a dozen personally If you dont believe in soft catches ... Come to squamish and i will give you a hard catch on a certain climb .... After getting your ankle tweaked youll believe in soft catches
Exactly.
Tom-onator · · trollfreesociety · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 790
J Q wrote:I love MP, apparantly the only good belayers are 50 years old, use an ATC, and have only caught about half the falls I take in one season over the course of their entire lifetime. This is why I am very weary on experienced climbers using ATC's. It's proof they don't catch very many falls. Everyone should know how to belay with an ATC, I know I learned when BD came out with their first so long ago, perhaps it is the best device to learn how to belay on so as to grow good belay habits. But nothing says incompetent belayer like an old man insisting on using an ATC because somehow he believes his non auto locking device is safer.
For the record I am 49 (for a few more days) and can soft catch every spank your proj spits you off with a f@ckin body belay, Munter hitch, stitch plate, fig of eight, atc, or gri gri.

The reason why??

Because as your belayer I will watch your every move because it's my duty as a person who choses to tie into a roped team.

So, I have only caught in my entire climbing career an Nth amount of the falls you take on an average afternoon. That doesn't make me any less skilled as a belayer.
Skill comes from attention to details.

Finn the Human wrote: That's quite a sweeping statement. I'm in my mid 20s, and I belay almost exclusively with my ATC. I've caught hundreds of lead falls safely while belaying with an ATC. It's the device I used when I learned to belay, and it's the device I'm best at using.
Wisdom beyond your years sir.

Catching falls is easy. An attentive belayer paying out rope appropriately and at the right time is more apt to help you send your project than the type of belay device used.
Peter D. · · Fairfield, OH · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 25

at the climbing gym one night this young guy asked if I wanted to do some TR's, so I agreed next question was "do you have a belay device?" So I hand him my ATC and he says whats this? Red flag number 1. He says I prefer to use the other type. You mean a grigri - "Yeah, I guess thats what its called". So then I ask are you TR belay certified here - this hurt his pride - "Sure man I've caught a bunch of falls". So I get my grigri out of my pack, choose a climb and hand him the grigri. As I tie in he just stands there looking at it with dumbfound look like what do I do with it? So I ask you do know how to use this right? oh yeah, its just this isn't like the one my friend has - mines 1st generation.

OK, lets just go over the basics, so I show him how to thread it, despite it being written on the side of the device, explain how it locks and how to give slack and then how to lower. By this time one of the gym staff is right behind us belaying a new member and is watching everything. So I tie in and tell my partner I'll climb up a few feet and take, and then have you lower me. Cleary he did not know how to lower, tentatively pulling back on the lever. Finally got things straightened out enough to do a few climbs. The first time he lowered me it waas rather fast - next time lower me slower. "oh me and my buddies like to lower really fast and stop right at the end." Then save it for your buddies not me.

The thing that got to me was during the whole time I gave him instructions and advice he had this indignant atttitude, like I was a know it all and had insulted him for questioning his ability. He clearly knew next to nothing but pretended he did.

Until recently I did not like to use a gri gri for lead belaying then a friend showed me one simple trick to feed slack when clipping - its on Petzl's website - and thats made all the difference. and this whole soft catch - that was new to me until recently. Actually never really thought about it being that my partners and I mostly climb trad and really did not take a lot of lead falls. I don't recall any of us taking really hard falls.

Last thing - this fall I took Arnold Ilgner's Falls and Comittment workshop - great experience - really taught me a lot about belaying and catching my partner. We spent a good bit of time learning to time the jump to give a soft catch. I outweigh most of my partners so its even more important that I get it right. Point being doesn't matter how long a person has been climbing - things have changed and its my repsonsibility to my partner(s) to insure they are safe.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

If you aren't using a gri to belay.. don't use the seatbelt in your car either... or you are hypocritical.

ATCs are great for rappelling, and look great in the gym with a helmet and a matching thong PAS.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
David Sahalie wrote:If you aren't using a gri to belay.. don't use the seatbelt in your car either... or you are hypocritical.
A much better analogy would be any of the electronic driver assist systems like ABS or traction control, which for 99% of the time would make you safer, but all have drawbacks under certain conditions.

But if your world of climbing only consists of safe sport falls...
chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

How are Gris unsafe for trad? All the guides I know use the gri or Smart to belay, ATC to rappel.

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330

Awesome, 3 pages of superior belay device/method drivel. This thread needs a JLP driveby.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
David Sahalie wrote:How are Gris unsafe for trad? All the guides I know use the gri or Smart to belay, ATC to rappel.
Dave, you should know better than to ask such a question here in ethical tradmanland
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
VaGenius wrote: Discussing how Gri Gris are less well suited to catching falls on thin or marginal gear is something we could well do, but it's Exmas, for Magic Adamantium Jesus' sake. Let's throw another shrimp on the Barbie!
c'mon killis, write us another eloquent essay on how you know best. you know you want to.
chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Killi/Vag knows all. He knows guides that are morons; therefore, they all are.

But somehow killis drunk posts make the holidays that much brighter.

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
David Sahalie wrote:How are Gris unsafe for trad? All the guides I know use the gri or Smart to belay, ATC to rappel.
There are SPECIFIC instances where a GriGri might be a less-than-ideal choice for the belay device in Trad. Grigris are NOT some universal no-no when you rack up with gear and can certainly increase safety in other situations.

Specifically, a GriGri is NOT a good choice for belays where the gear is marginal (low strength) and close to the belay. Because of the GriGri's relatively static belay (minimal rope slip) the peak forces on the top piece are higher than peak forces found with a "dynamic" belay such as an ATC which allows rope slippage. Close to the belay, the impact forces will be higher (less rope out). Combine that with the static GriGri catch and your peak forces MIGHT exceed the strength of small nuts and marginal gear.

The flip side, of course, an assisted belay devices can provide more safety if there is risk of belayer being incapacitated.
aSteel · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 235

Jon, after being dropped long distance by several belayers, I was finally dropped to the ground from 20' by a climbing Instructor I had climbed with for over a year. She had just never taken belaying seriously, or considered how a belay might fail. I had clipped a bolt above me and fell right after, to the ground. She had her hand on the brake side, but it was above the ATC and she got a burn trying to stop it from sliding through her hand.

After that incident, I don't climb anymore with strangers, and I vet my friends way more thoroughly. I supervise a lot of climbing Instructors, and now that I look more closely I see many, many mistakes that regular climbers make. Belaying is an understudied and underappreciated science. Until someone has proven that not only can they belay well, but they really care about belaying well, I have a trusted friend keep an eye on them close by, ready to grab the brake strand, or giving a backup belay. My trusted friends are few.

If I'm forced to climb with an un-tested belayer, I will adhere to Locker's idea of only easy leads, or I will get psyched to pull on gear to avoid a fall.

A gri gri solves the problem of taking rope in, as in a top rope situation, but it's a pretty bad thing to make a beginner lower with, or lead belay with, unless you have someone there teaching them. The process is more complicated than with an ATC. So, no easy solution there.

I'm done falling to the ground when I have a rope on me if I can help it. My vetting process is strict, and limits who I can climb with, but I got lucky when I fell that time. I don't want to play the odds again.

Good luck!

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Glenn Schuler wrote:Awesome, 3 pages of superior belay device/method drivel. This thread needs a JLP driveby.
If theres one thread that should be a gazillion pages this is it

Every climber and MPer thinks they are a "safe" belayer ... no one will even consider that they might not be

Yet people and MPer get dropped ...

In mean MPer luuv long threads about deadly dyneema, biner through tie in points, PASes, dumb thing other climbers say ... Those arent the real killers except on the intrawebs

Belaying screwups is one of the things that will most likely get you killed

;)
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50

Sadly, you are right. To be honest, I didn't become a good belayer for many many years after I started climbing. Bad belayers don't like to be told that they are dangerous and because of that they have a difficult time changing their dangerous behavior.

Most serious fuck-ups happen when people belay each other without climbing with each other first, on a plethora of different auto and assisted locking devices. Holy shit I can count the injuries, but I never actually seen a death, yet.

Some of the most dangerous belays I have seen are the lead solo belays, but that figures.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
bearbreeder wrote: If theres one thread that should be a gazillion pages this is it Every climber and MPer thinks they are a "safe" belayer ... no one will even consider that they might not be Yet people and MPer get dropped ... In mean MPer luuv long threads about deadly dyneema, biner through tie in points, PASes, dumb thing other climbers say ... Those arent the real killers except on the intrawebs Belaying screwups is one of the things that will most likely get you killed ;)
partner screw ups are way higher on the list, even a person with perfect knowledge of all the latest and greatest techniques can space out and kill someone.

having perfect form does not make one safe or a winner in life, the overall record goes a long way
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
MJMobes wrote: partner screw ups are way higher on the list, even a person with perfect knowledge of all the latest and greatest techniques can space out and kill someone. having perfect form does not make one safe or a winner in life, the overall record goes a long way
Belayer ATTENTION and PRACTICE are included in belay "screw ups"

Knowledge is USELESS unless u practice it over and over again and pay ATTENTION when you use it

I asked before .... How many MPers here whip off the last bolt then the fall is clean and overhanging ... Especially in the gym

How many good sized falls do you or your partner catch in a sport climbing session?

Most good sport climbers i see take 5+ whippers in a day, and many other smaller falls working out the moves

Multiply that by 100+ days a year thats 1000 whipper and smaller falls in a year or two

How in the hell do you know that your belayer is "reliable" unless he/she is practiced in catching you over and over again???

U just ASSUME they are .... And as one of the post aboves show ... Even "climbing instructors" can drop MPers

There are many different ways ti skin the belay cat .. The REAL question is can they catch you over and over again safely

As to "latest greatest techniques" ... Soft catches have been known for many many years ... Every sport climber who falls frequently knows it, and they also know prople who have gotten hurt by hard catches ...

;)
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

really what I'm saying is that you can post in 20 different forums about safety and the latest and greatest ways to hold the rope in your gym but that means shit in the real world and wouldnt make me trust you over my regular partners, in fact since you are so obsessed with safety it leads me to believe that you have been around WAY TOO many accidents and probably have been involved in a few of them.

and whats this about soft catches? many of us have known about this since before the climbing internet began

if you want to compare days on the rock we can do that

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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