Fair-Weather Friend

"Hooks and direct aid are okay only if the terrain is significantly overhanging, otherwise you can only bolt from natural stances"

No, hook wherever you want. It just makes sense to avoid it when possible so you don't break holds. If you have a good stance to drill from, use it.

"if you weigh the rope/gear at any point during your FA, you are expected to return to the ground, and start over"

Nobody said that.

"if there is no room for evolution of style"

Or that.

J. Albers wrote:Sh*t, even at a crag like Rumney that has far less complicated ethos involved you can't get people to agree on what is okay. Fixed draws ring a bell?

Fixed draws *do* come to mind. Rest assured, the locals are working it out with the USFS, within the existing rules and norms. And I can guarantee you that we will not take your opinion into account when making the rules.

So are you saying I'm in the clear to come out to Colorado and start retrobolting hard trad lines, since there is some precedent for that in other areas of the country?

J. Albers wrote: Yes, the rules are actually pretty arbitrary when you really sit down and try and justify each and every rule...especially if you try to make sense of the rules relative to one another.

Nobody said we have to have one set of universal rules that all make sense when considered in aggregate. Local variations are expected. When you disregard them because they don't make sense in some other context where they were not intended to apply, then you put at-risk all rules everywhere where they are established.

Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common."

And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC."

So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist.

I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.

the schmuck wrote:I do have one question however. If NC climbing is this steeped in traditionalism, and if there is no room for evolution of style, then why accept power drills? There were no power drills until the late 80s, so if the only acceptable way to put up routes is the way they always were, then there is no room for mechanized equipment. Actually, it may just be easier to adopt the Connecticut standard of no bolts at all.

Like David said, nobody said that there isn't room for evolution in style. Obviously it has evolved, but it won't evolve into top-down being accepted overnight. I hope that it will never be accepted on a 5.7 slab. There is a good reason to use power-drills over hand-drills. They drill better holes. Which means the bolt will last longer, fewer bolts will have to replaced, less damage to the resource, they can also be easily placed much higher than a hand-drilled bolt.

the schmuck wrote:Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common." And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC." So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist. I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.

I haven't heard of coming down on an FA if you weight the rope. That does seem arbitrary unless you're going for a free ascent.

The drilling from a stance thing I addressed in my last post.

It's not arbitrary, but it does vary slightly from person to person. There is an overarching theme that you would understand if you lived and climbed here for years. That's why you talk to local veteran climbers before you put up a route in an area you aren't familiar with.

Of course I'm completely talking out of my ass because I've never even established a route anywhere. :)

the schmuck wrote:Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common." And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC." So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist. I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.

Now your just cherry picking quotes from Ben or me to fit your agenda. Look what I said about hooking. It is acceptable. I think David's response is even better. Why hook when you don't have in order to avoid potentially breaking holds. My response about weighting the rope says that it is accepted. I just know some history of some older routes where the leader would come down after placing the bolt. Many of the harder routes today are being done rope solo. I would not expect the person rope soloing to come down as all of their bolts will have been placed on lead, even if they hung in between placements. Don't confuse ground-up with ground-up onsight.

Fair enough, and I do respect the weight of local opinions. I grasp and agree with local standards regarding sport bolting, or no bolts, or just no bolts near protectable features, even bolting by committee. I just find arguments about the technique of how a bolt is placed, if placed at all, a little odd.

Anyone who finds this discussion odd just needs to do a bit of research. Even a quick read of the Shull-Lambert guide will provide a LOT of insight into the whole situation.

You wouldn't show up to a town hall meeting in another state without reading up on the issues first... Would you?

Mike Reardon wrote: That said, I never climbed 'Lucky Charms' until it was retro bolted and I gladly clipped every bolt along the way.

I'm just curious. The old Kelly book lists Lucky Charms as a 11d/12a R/X and "not recommended". Does anyone know the style of the retro bolt?

Wait, the FA is the same guy who recently "challenged' people to repeat his enchainment of a bunch of 5.4s in the gorge? Dunno if he should be poking holes in the rock just yet. At the very least he could have asked around the boards or the crags first. Seems these days if you and your partner haven't done it then: it must be an FA!!!! fame and fortune await! The bolt first ask questions later approach is truly a fascinating display of clueless disrespect.

Abe Frohman wrote:

ya same guy...totally forgot about that. He is enthusiastic that's for sure!

But Sean says no problem with 60 foot bolt laddders out blank roofs, boy thats going to open up a lot of new routes for me! Hell, if I use Doc Bayne's tactic of drilling bat hook holes like on Long Strange Trip to connect blank faces, and use Jeep Gaskin's tactic of atop down preview like he did on Spent Brass my options are endless!

shannon stegg wrote:But Sean says no problem with 60 foot bolt laddders out blank roofs, boy thats going to open up a lot of new routes for me! Hell, if I use Doc Bayne's tactic of drilling bat hook holes like on Long Strange Trip to connect blank faces, and use Jeep Gaskin's tactic of atop down preview like he did on Spent Brass my options are endless!

...Says the most prominent ''Valley Christian'' (VC - as 007 already pointed out).

Why such animosity towards everyone?

Well, I am proud of you, atleast you have a large enough sack to go by your name. So I will ask you again how does it feel to be on the wrong side of history about New Route Comittee's? Oh' my animosity, that might come from the fact that one of your namless buddies you defend chopped a bolt on my direct finish to Groover, the last of four. It was placed on lead! I took a friend up it and he could not see the fourth bolt. After trying to convince my buddy there was another bolt, he left a biner and lowered back to the belay. We finished Groover by the original line and I rapped the direct finish to find it chopped. They did not even patch it! Never in my wildest dreams, and believe me I have some wild dreams, did I figure you crazy people would sabotage a climb with the intent to harm me or someone else! So really Nathan if you are that bored, please go back to power drilling at Linville you are no help with girlish comments.

I see the usual suspects are back at it...

Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.

Oh good Lord. My picture was obviously a joke to anyone with half a brain. Now Mr. Perfect bashes Doc (RIP) and Jeep. WTF? Quit living in the past and seek counseling. Please.

shannon stegg wrote:Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.