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Adding/moving bolts at Stone Mountain NC

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Recon Buck wrote: No I understand, I understand very well. I have climbed at Stone Mountain, and I have climbed R rated routes, and yes there is a great deal of satisfaction in keeping your shit together on scary stuff. But if you think it isn't about ego you are lying to yourself. And not wanting others to climb in a 'poorer style' than how you climb is absolutely 100% about your ego. You claim you are the victim if a bolt is added to an unprotected section because it gives you an option and thus you are being denied your proper spiritual/terror experience. This is bullshit, and I will prove it to you; instead of a bolt imagine there is just a bolt hole. Now someone who does not want to experience the runout can plug in a removable bolt, but if you want to climb it with the runout you can simply not carry a removable bolt. Your climbing experience would be exactly the same. Would that be an acceptable situation to you? You don't need to answer, I can tell you right now that you won't like it. Because it isn't really about your climbing experience, it is about your ego, and your ego won't be nearly as satisfied if gumbies can skate through the runout because they are protecting it with a removable bolt.
It is satisfaction never-the-less...you can call it ego all you want, but the satisfaction is no different than if you just red pointed a safe difficult route. And yes, a bolt hole for an RB would cause the same issue as an actual bolt. You are adding potential protection where there was none for the FA. Your argument makes about as much sense as telling someone they don't need to carry a rope if they want a scare-fest. Maybe it is ego, but the ego is no different than climbing hard. You said that bold climbing is about more than just ego, you said, "the goal is to gain the admiration of others". This is what is bullshit. It may be about ego in that I feel proud of bold (for me) leading, but I do not care one bit about gaining the admiration of others. Maybe this is why you climb, but don't project your reasons on other climbers.

Making the route safer than it is is essentially the equivalent of chipping in a hold to make the climbing easier. After all, you don't have to use the chipped hold if you want the climb harder, right? Either way you're dumbing the route down to your level instead of rising up to the challenge.

I absolutely do value trying to re-create the experience of the FA. It won't be possible since we have topos and we're not hand drilling from a stance, but I value trying to get as close as possible. If I want a climb to go up in a particular way, I'll get off my ass and find my own FA and bolt it as I find appropriate. I'll leave other people's routes as they put them up, because I respect what goes into pulling off an FA.
Recon Buck · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 85

Well to be clear, I am not a proponent of retrobolting routes. But I am also not a proponent of bullshit excuses; and traditional climbers are about as full of crap as you can get on the bullshit-o-meter. They have a bunch of contradictory illogical rules all set out for the sole purpose of stoking their egos.

Yes, there are many reasons why people climb, its fun, its social, you get some exercise etc. But I stand by my statement; the reason people climb hard scary shit is because of their ego and their ego is seeking accolades from other climbers. Period. It has nothing to do with tradition, or preserving the resource, mimicking the experience of the first ascent etc etc etc; that is all bullshit. Climbers are not monks seeking self enlightenment through looking death in the face, they are adrenaline junkies who have a tremendous desire to show off.

If no one was ever going to know about it 99.9% of the ascents of scary routes would never take place.

Recon Buck · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 85
csproul wrote:And yes, a bolt hole for an RB would cause the same issue as an actual bolt. You are adding potential protection where there was none for the FA.
Oh, and I forgot to mention what a load of bullshit this is; forget about the FA, what they did has nothing to do with what you are doing, try and stick to the subject. A bolt hole would not effect your climbing experience at all. Yes, you have the option to carry a removable bolt, but if you don't it is no different than deciding not to carry a hammer and a rack of pins.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Recon Buck wrote:Well to be clear, I am not a proponent of retrobolting routes. But I am also not a proponent of bullshit excuses; and traditional climbers are about as full of crap as you can get on the bullshit-o-meter. They have a bunch of contradictory illogical rules all set out for the sole purpose of stoking their egos. Yes, there are many reasons why people climb, its fun, its social, you get some exercise etc. But I stand by my statement; the reason people climb hard scary shit is because of their ego and their ego is seeking accolades from other climbers. Period. It has nothing to do with tradition, or preserving the resource, mimicking the experience of the first ascent etc etc etc; that is all bullshit. Climbers are not monks seeking self enlightenment through looking death in the face, they are adrenaline junkies who have a tremendous desire to show off. If no one was ever going to know about it 99.9% of the ascents of scary routes would never take place.
Why not? If there is no reason for scary climbs other than stroking your ego and accolades from other climbers, why would you care if routes were retro-bolted? The only obvious answer would be that you enjoy the ego stroking? You're projecting your own reasons for climbing to everyone else. I know plenty of climbers that enjoy being scared while climbing and would still never care if anyone else knew about their sends. Just because you want to be recognized doesn't mean that everyone else is the same.

Don't confuse pride with the need for external gratification. I'm proud of some the ascents I've made at Stone. In the scheme of Stone Mtn climbers, my sends are no great feat and certainly not worthy of praise from other climbers. I'm still proud of my climbs and they would have been entirely different experiences if the protection had been different.

Maybe you should re-evaluate your reasons for climbing or at least the people you climb with?
Recon Buck · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 85

Oh don't worry, I have done a great deal of soul searching as to why I climb, and the reasons have varied and changed considerably over the years. I have gone through periods where I was motivated by onsights, by cracks, by FA's, by V grades etc etc etc but it all comes back to ego, and I can admit that. And all these years I have been reading and listening to climbers try and explain/justify A) why climbing is important and B) why dangerous/scary routes should be left unprotected.

What I have determined is A) climbing isn't important B) big egos are fed by big risks and admiration.

Now you can pretend that you and your cohorts are puritan soul climbers whose only motivation is the sanctity of the experience, but you are full of shit. And until you realise you are full of shit you will never understand why newbies don't 'get' traditional values. Thing is, bullshit transcends experience and you do not have to be a 5 whatever X climber to quickly realise that what you are spewing is nonsense.

I mean think about it, really think about it from an unbiased 3rd party perspective; you tried to tell me that if there was a bolt hole on a route it would ruin your climbing experience because the hole wasn't there for the FA. That sounds utterly ridiculous. Because it is utterly ridiculous, and the reason you cling to this nonsense is because you do not want to admit that you are being driven by your ego which can only be satisfied by recognition.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Recon Buck wrote:Oh don't worry, I have done a great deal of soul searching as to why I climb, and the reasons have varied and changed considerably over the years. I have gone through periods where I was motivated by onsights, by cracks, by FA's, by V grades etc etc etc but it all comes back to ego, and I can admit that. And all these years I have been reading and listening to climbers try and explain/justify A) why climbing is important and B) why dangerous/scary routes should be left unprotected. What I have determined is A) climbing isn't important B) big egos are fed by big risks and admiration. Now you can pretend that you and your cohorts are puritan soul climbers whose only motivation is the sanctity of the experience, but you are full of shit. And until you realise you are full of shit you will never understand why newbies don't 'get' traditional values. Thing is, bullshit transcends experience and you do not have to be a 5 whatever X climber to quickly realise that what you are spewing is nonsense. I mean think about it, really think about it from an unbiased 3rd party perspective; you tried to tell me that if there was a bolt hole on a route it would ruin your climbing experience because the hole wasn't there for the FA. That sounds utterly ridiculous. Because it is utterly ridiculous, and the reason you cling to this nonsense is because you do not want to admit that you are being driven by your ego which can only be satisfied by recognition.
Ego's don't require external validation. By your definition of ego, all climbing is ego driven, I'll give you that. But none of this requires external validation. Your version of ego would cover why anyone climbs anything...sport, boulder, big wall, alpine, or ice.

An RB in your (ridiculous) scenario is no different than any other piece of gear. You could always leave that critical #1 stopper on the ground. Or take 5 quickdraws on a route with 6 bolts. Or any other contrived scenario you want to come up with. Some people find intrinsic value in taking a route as it comes. Ideally some might think this means no bolts and that is a valid view. But in the case of Stone the bolts are already there, so I'm quite willing to take the routes as they are without reducing them to my level. I still maintain that most of Stone's routes would be boring of they were grid bolted.

BTW, you never answered the question about why you do not support retro-bolting routes, especially ones that are unsafe. If you're saying that these routes only exist for external gratification of one's ego, then you are essentially saying that you don't want them retro'ed so you can keep your ego in tact. Pretty shitty reason IMO. What about routes that you've never done or will never do? I'll never climb Bachar Yarian, so I can't imagine how my ego has any stake in whether or not it gets retroed. Despite that, I wouldn't want to see it happen.
NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325

FUCKING SACK UP AND LEAD!

9 pages and that's all that matters.

Jonny 5 · · Squamish BC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 1,220
Recon Buck wrote:... And until you realise you are full of shit you will never understand why newbies don't 'get' traditional values.....
I haven't lead a route/problem that gets the runout or highball symbol yet, but not all routes around here are equally bolted. I also haven't led 5.10a yet. I would guess that both of these reasons are a combination of me not being physically and/or mentally ready. I assume that just as I will lead bigger grades as I get stronger, I may one day lead bolder routes as I get more experience. My motivations are my own for both... So many routes why are we arguing about bolting others climbs? I don't get it. If the routes boldness as got you worried then do a different route. Seems simple even to me that just started climbing last spring...
Recon Buck · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 85
csproul wrote: Ego's don't require external validation. By your definition of ego, all climbing is ego driven, I'll give you that. But none of this requires external validation. Your version of ego would cover why anyone climbs anything...sport, boulder, big wall, alpine, or ice. An RB in your (ridiculous) scenario is no different than any other piece of gear. You could always leave that critical #1 stopper on the ground. Or take 5 quickdraws on a route with 6 bolts. Or any other contrived scenario you want to come up with. Some people find intrinsic value in taking a route as it comes. Ideally some might think this means no bolts and that is a valid view. But in the case of Stone the bolts are already there, so I'm quite willing to take the routes as they are without reducing them to my level. I still maintain that most of Stone's routes would be boring of they were grid bolted. BTW, you never answered the question about why you do not support retro-bolting routes, especially ones that are unsafe. If you're saying that these routes only exist for external gratification of one's ego, then you are essentially saying that you don't want them retro'ed so you can keep your ego in tact. Pretty shitty reason IMO. What about routes that you've never done or will never do? I'll never climb Bachar Yarian, so I can't imagine how my ego has any stake in whether or not it gets retroed. Despite that, I wouldn't want to see it happen.
I am glad we agree that climbing is ego driven, because it is. For a long time I would have agreed that it does not require 'external validation' but I changed my mind. One thing that helped change my mind is how adamantly hard core tradies defend traditional values. And again, I am not opposed to traditional climbing values, onsight climbing with gear is my favourite style, but I also recognise it as an arbitrary set of self imposed rules. But back to the subject: whenever there is a debate over something like this bolt at Stone it quickly degenerates into a pecker waving contest. The reason is that people like 'Meme Guy' relish the opportunity brag about all the hard routes and free solos they did and why anyone who disagrees with him is a pussy. That is pure ego in desperate need of 'validation.' That is also the norm, not the exception. Sure some people are a bit more subtle, but if you care to look you will see the same thing in sport climbing, same for bouldering, and most especially mountaineering. Climbers most certainly do NOT climb for themselves, they are glory hounds, and they will derive satisfaction from others one way or another.

And I completely agree, leaving gear behind, skipping bolts etc is all the same thing. But that really isn't the issue; the issue is why you would not receive the same satisfaction from any of these things. And the answer is that you would miss out on the validation. It's just as scary, just as dangerous, but saying "Yeah I skipped the third bolt on Monkey Boy" sounds kind of stupid, not heroic. And that is why tradies are so opposed to protecting dangerous routes, because its all about ego, and as I said before preservation and respect and values etc etc etc is nothing but bullshit.

And you are wrong about Bachar Yarian, your ego does have a stake in it. If you are a trad climber you are in a group that leans toward hard core climbing and a technical proficiency. Bachar Yarian is a proud testament to that bad assedness, and through association you benefit, as do I (who will never climb it either). But the reason I support preserving routes as they are is that there are people who want to climb them that way. I will argue with you about their motivation for climbing them, but the fact remains that is what they really want to do. So I say keep the scary stuff for the pecker wavers, it isn't like there is a shortage of well protected routes.
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325

If i wanted to brag I would have bought a gopro. If my ego was as big as you say it is, I would have put all my stupid little tick marks on the recent ticks area and I would always tell you about that "one time on el cap". I would also post multiple trip reports full of pictures of stupid belay stances, so everyone would know how bad ass I am without having to ask me.

Never once did I brag about free soloing. Your only forum posts are in this topic so you can go fuck off troll.

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

I don't buy that the only reason for scary routes is ego. Sometimes it legitimately does have to do with "preserving the resource" or the experience. Plenty of alpine climbs in RMNP (and elsewhere, that's just the only place I have experience with) have long run outs. Some of them may qualify for "badass" status but at least the ones I've done do not. They were just a fun time in the mountains. For me, preserving the "wilderness experience" as much as possible adds to the fun. I also enjoy the route finding challenge presented in finding your way up a mountain with limited beta, something that would be impossible with bolts or "bolt holes" all over the place.

Do I seriously think I'm a badass because I "ran it out" over 5.6 terrain on some moderate alpine route? Hardly. Would I be pissed if you grid bolted the mountains and told me to just not clip them? Yes, very much so. I dont think that's ego is it?

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

Did someone really say that NC rock is of such "high quality" that is should not be altered? I believe it was in the comparison to Ken Nichols in Connecticut.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not endless amounts of awesome climbable rock all over the earth? I cherish western NC as well, and while I haven't climbed there much, I am wondering if it really is "best in the world" or something.

People love their crags, that is for sure. We all hold our local crags near to our heart.

wpfister Pfister · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 55

I don't think that you can say that any of this has anything to do with "stroking an ego," however I do think that the answer has been stated for about 9 pages now, and that it has everything to do with preserving the history and character of a climbing location. A route should be left how the FA'ers wanted it, simple, end of story. If you feel that the route has somehow changed over time, you should still get the FA'ers permission to do something about it.

Think of the grit in england, I don't think that their very traditional values mean that they're all on an ego trip, but that they all really love the traditional values and ethics that goes along with their climbing locations and their willing to take the risks that come with that. And if they are not, then i'm sure they climb a different route or just top rope until they are ready. In my personal opinion in the end I think this comes down more to values and ethics than it does anything to do with trying to feel like a badass or showing off.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Russ Keane wrote:Did someone really say that NC rock is of such "high quality" that is should not be altered? I believe it was in the comparison to Ken Nichols in Connecticut. Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not endless amounts of awesome climbable rock all over the earth? I cherish western NC as well, and while I haven't climbed there much, I am wondering if it really is "best in the world" or something. People love their crags, that is for sure. We all hold our local crags near to our heart.
you could use the quote function that the website provides?
Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791

Fun, solitude, social reasons, adventure, exploration, learning about your own limits and capabilities, the view, teamwork, competition, gaining self worth, health, finding inner peace, self confidence building, being outside in a natural setting, the feeling of moving confidently over chalenging terrain. The technical aspect of rope and gear management, Bragging rights, self reliance, getting away from your kids/partner/parents ;-)

Get the point? Many reasons why folks climb. And ego is involved in SOME of them.

I won't deny that ego has its place in climbing but to say that it is the only reason is ... bullshit. Most serious climbers battle with ego and try to push that out of the forefront of there mind in order to excell and push thier own limits. The rock warriors way is a great book all about ego and how to push beyond it.

I agree that if you climb for ego than you should find another hobby because that is not a healthy approach. Again don't try to put that on everyone else that climbs for more innocent reasons. When I started climbing, I simply fell in love with every aspect of "rock climbing" and ego is a VERY small part of it and if I had it my way it would not even be a small part.

Now can we get back to our regularly scheduled program? Sorry, couldn't resist feeding the troll.

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392
MJMobes wrote: this thread is almost as good as the old CT/NY ethics/why is ken nichols such a dick thread from years back mountainproject.com/v/bolti… the main exception is NC rock is higher quality by far and there is not just one psycho dictating/brainwashing the "ethics" that every climber should abide to. In the years since starting that thread I've come to the same conclusion as Buck, ego plays a huge roll. I just skip bolts when I want to soothe my ego (for people to see). and yeah, its raining here during record winter warmth, at least the snow is melting quick!
Thanks, it was this on page 7. Perhaps I mis-understood the context of your statement -- but I thought it was interesting the insinuation that bolt-wars in Connecticut are less important than those in North Carolina, due to rock quality. Just in general I wanted to point out that there is good quality rock everywhere.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Recon Buck wrote:Oh don't worry, I have done a great deal of soul searching as to why I climb, and the reasons have varied and changed considerably over the years. I have gone through periods where I was motivated by onsights, by cracks, by FA's, by V grades etc etc etc but it all comes back to ego, and I can admit that. And all these years I have been reading and listening to climbers try and explain/justify A) why climbing is important and B) why dangerous/scary routes should be left unprotected. What I have determined is A) climbing isn't important B) big egos are fed by big risks and admiration. Now you can pretend that you and your cohorts are puritan soul climbers whose only motivation is the sanctity of the experience, but you are full of shit. And until you realise you are full of shit you will never understand why newbies don't 'get' traditional values. Thing is, bullshit transcends experience and you do not have to be a 5 whatever X climber to quickly realise that what you are spewing is nonsense. I mean think about it, really think about it from an unbiased 3rd party perspective; you tried to tell me that if there was a bolt hole on a route it would ruin your climbing experience because the hole wasn't there for the FA. That sounds utterly ridiculous. Because it is utterly ridiculous, and the reason you cling to this nonsense is because you do not want to admit that you are being driven by your ego which can only be satisfied by recognition.
LOL, I love how someone posting a very good argument is all the sudden deemed a troll, its as if something hit a little too close to home and the pain deep down inside is only soothed by name calling. I suggest telling Buck to 'STFU u big dummy'!

I'm 99% in agreement with this post and it almost describes myself to the T. I used to be motivated by grades and days on the rock, trying to work as little as possible etc etc. These days I mostly go out and clean up and bolt chossy POS cliffs that were ignored for years because the local ethic said bolts are no good. I dont do it for recognition, I do it as a way of giving back to the climbing community for all the years I was a taker. Maybe it is egotistical to be happy about seeing someone having a good time on a fairly safe route that wasnt there before, I dont have a word for that if its not.

I'm also sort of in agreement with Buck on keeping some of the local tough guy routes BUT not all of them. I believe when a route sits around collecting dust because nobody wants to repeat it it should be considered for the retro bolt list. I believe in scary lines, I dont care much for X-rated lines and I dont believe in locking down a cliff because of some guys ego BITD. The word 'ego' is not a bad word, at least its not after you start understanding how ego makes the world go round.

flame on suckas
NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Megan thinks that we should all just shut the fuck up and go climbing. Cheers!

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Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791

Still raining

Okay, maybe not a troll in the normal sence. Maybe I'm bummed because I thought the thread was going in a positive direction and now has lost that. I was hoping to hear more from Stegg in regards to the questions Killis asked. I have seen Stegg post up from his soapbox 1 to many times to not want to hear more about what he or others (clears throat) have done to rectify things. I love the NC tradition but hate to hear about petty squabbles over and over. When it comes to that type of behavior you have to step back and say is it worth it? It is just rock climbing after all. living a bitter existence over some bolts is just depressing. Cant we all just get along and come to some agreement?

Edit: not sure why it didn't quote correctly but those are Killis quotes below.

Shannon, I guess my question is, did you talk to Eddie or Offenbacher back when, or since? Was an attempt made to work it out, do you feel the bolts need to go all this time later, or is it water under the bridge? Solutions exist to most problems, usually communication is a good place to start.

So to be clear, I'm not jumping on some dogpile on Shannon, I'd just like to understand the situation better.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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