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To use the belay loop or the tie-in loops?

Mikey Seaman · · Boise, ID · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 5

Did anyone above mention that all belay loops are doubled already, so there's no need for 2 separate belay loops, and that makes the belay loop redundant?

iceman777 · · Colorado Springs · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 60

Well I'm not here to tell anyone whats right or wrong .its an individual choice your PPE is yours and do what ever makes you feel secure .the belay loops on all harnesses are tested when new we all know what sun, dirt, excess wear from o/w climbing or a zillion other things we inadvertently subject our gear to some from neglect and some by accident and some by not knowing any better .

BUT........money is no object when it comes to my life .

I always have and always will back up my belay loop with a same sized locking carabiner through my harness tie in points ie... Waist belt and leg loops . They go on the moment I pull that brand spanking new harness out of the bag and live n die there until I throw the whole mess away . For the last 30 years of climbing this has been my standard practice no matter the venue . Ice,trad or big wall ect ect ..... And it always will be .

Now does it cross load a carabiner ? Maybe ? But I can honestly tell you it's never amounted to jack shit for me ,haven't ever noticed it ....don't give a shit if it does carabiners are cheap insurance ,so is a new harness when I no longer have faith in the old one .

like I said in the beginning your PPE is yours you decide what,and how you wish to proceed .

Cheers

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

I used to put my locker through the tie in points as I hated the locker flopping around and getting loaded on the gate while I belayed. I then got BD's expensive Gridlock carabiner that addresses that issue. But it's a bit of a pain using that and sand in my area destroys lockers within a year, so now I am back to just letting the locker flop some on the belay loop.

I have heard of first hand witnessing of a locker breaking when the belayer caught a hard fall with the locker attached to the tie in points of a harness. It is in fact a possibility. Given that, why not use the belay loop? It is ideal for belaying.

Aside from the flopping locker shit.

See, nothing is perfect.

William P. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 0

Regardless of how he has instructed you to belay him.....I strongly suggest that you insist that he belay you off the belay loop only or look for a new mentor.

Abram Herman · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined May 2009 · Points: 20

Use the belay loop. If you're actually worried about the belay loop breaking it's time for a new harness (or possibly a new sport), not a different belay technique.

On another note, perhaps more important than the method your mentor uses is how he responds to you questioning his methods. When I first started climbing I had a partner/mentor who belayed through the tie-in points. Once I knew enough to know that it's not the right way to do things, I asked him to belay me off the loop instead to avoid any crossloaded biners. His response was, essentially, if you don't like it don't climb with me. So I took him up on it! :-) Climbing knowledge changes, like anything else, and if your mentor refuses to change with it then he's just not very safe and has the wrong mindset about climbing.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Stich wrote: I have heard of first hand witnessing of a locker breaking when the belayer caught a hard fall with the locker attached to the tie in points of a harness. It is in fact a possibility.
i would love to see the accident report, or barring that the actual accident thread on an internet web site ...

im not saying this is not possible ... but in previous gridlock discussions no one could come up with any REAL DOCUMENTED examples of belay biners breaking when crossloaded for belaying

obviously belaying with the biner through the tie in points is a bit of a different situation .. but BD STILL recommends going though the tie in points on the alpine bod harness

BD instruction alpine bod

the forces would need to be quite high i suspect for a properly locked biner to break ...

;)
BGardner · · Seattle, WA · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 0
Ben Beckerich wrote: The point is that the belay loop is not somehow self-redundant
Depends on how you define redundant. When building anchors it is common to use a single double-length sling and to use a knot to isolate to different sides. Even though it is technically all one sling, most of us consider that redundant.
It is also common to extend master-points by threading a sling through the original master point, doubling it over and tieing an Overhand-knot.
When you look at any modern belay loop you'll see that the material does two full wraps. The bar-tack is through three pieces of material effectively creating two overlapping rings of webbing.

Personally, I consider the belay as redundant as many of the other systems in climbing that many of us use all the time.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
bearbreeder wrote: but BD STILL recommends going though the tie in points on the alpine bod harness
Because there is no other option. That harness does not have a belay loop, otherwise BD would recommend the user use the loop.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
20 kN wrote: Because there is no other option. That harness does not have a belay loop, otherwise BD would recommend the user use the loop.
And yet BD still makes and sells the alpinr bod

Are they selling an "unsafe" product ... An recommending it be used in an "unsafe" way???

Hmmmmm

;)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
John Wilder wrote: I am continually astounded by the stubbornness of climbers and their unwillingness to learn anything new. Times change. Techniques change. It's okay to learn new things- really.
i bet everyone on the intrawebs said the same thing about people who refused to use quads when mr longs book came out on the subject ....

theres alot of "obsolete" things that some climbers do ... munters, body belays, rope anchors, hexes, hell even an ATC is "obsolete" these days ...

i would still very much like to see the accident report of a biner breaking belaying from being clipped into the tie in loops ...

heres a question which i always wanted answered ... how DO you belay off the edelrid loopo since there is no belay loop ... do you go through both tie in points or the rope loop?



theres many things that WILL kill you like you said ... such as bad belaying, rockfall, flipping over and smacking your head, screwing up on rap, screwing up your tie in ...

belaying off the tie in points (or the rope loop as long as you dont have the fig 8 yos finish) probably aint one of them

;)
rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210
bearbreeder wrote: ... i would still very much like to see the accident report of a biner breaking belaying from being clipped into the tie in loops ...
Doubt it ever happened but two things to remember. If it wasn't designed to be used that way then it most likely wasn't tested so of course the design engineer wouldn't endorse it. The other is the theoretical world which engineers spend a ton of time analyzing and doing various mathematical simulations. Theoretically you can load the carabiner in a way it wasn't designed and break it...in theory.
Craig Rowe · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0
Ben Beckerich wrote:Didn't make a "noob excuse," not sure WTF you're talking about. I did, however, say "in my defense," obviously acknowledging my responsibility. It was my bad. Lesson learned. If I'd realized just how inexperienced he really was, I wouldn't have started up the pitch before he was even tied in. Tain't the crag, where you always have the luxury.
You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 125

Once again I'll note that there are a lot of silly comments being made on this thread. Belay loops are extremely strong. Given that there is only 1 documented case of a belay loop ever failing refusing to use it because it's not redundant doesn't make much sense. At the same time I'm not aware of any documented accident ever caused by cross loading of a belay biner through the tie-in points.

In short neither method is likely to contribute to an accident. There are much better things to concern yourself with.

1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

I belay through the tie in points as it allows me to feed and take in more slack quickly and my locker rarely gets crossloaded. I have caught thousands of falls from short hard falls to huge 50 footers. I have never worry about a failure. Been doing it for the last 20 years. I would like to see an accident report as well, regarding lockers breaking because they were used at the tie in points.

Ryan Nevius · · Perchtoldsdorf, AT · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 1,837
1Eric Rhicard wrote:...feed and take in more slack quickly...rarely gets crossloaded...
At least it's only rarely. I fortunately don't have these problems belaying off of the belay loop.
Scott O · · Anchorage · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 70
Ryan Kempf wrote: My remark was not directed @ the OP. It was directed at the response and internet analyzing this will get.
Would you rather have a dead repository of old information or an active forum? It's the beginner's forum. Who cares if the question has been asked before?
Dsands Sanderson · · Arlington, VA · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 30

May have been said already but if we look at the vernacular we can put this topic to bed.

It is called a "belay loop" because its intended purpose is to be used in belaying (it also orients belay devices more ergonomically)

They are called "tie-in loop/points" because that is where you are supposed to tie in.

I highly doubt that we would have made it thus far in climbing without naming these things in such an appropriate manner. Not saying that if you do it different is wrong (unless you are one of those gear loop stories) I will let someone else define what is wrong.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
rging wrote: . Theoretically you can load the carabiner in a way it wasn't designed and break it...in theory.
Biners breaking is far from just theoretical. Many have broken in the field over the years. I don't know of any belay biners though. But, biners are the second weakest link in the climbing system. They do warrant protecting.
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

You guys are silly. Funny thread idea, OP!

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Greg D wrote: Biners breaking is far from just theoretical. Many have broken in the field over the years. I don't know of any belay biners though. But, biners are the second weakest link in the climbing system. They do warrant protecting.
here is an interesting article that i remember. i don't completely agree with some of the statements (particularly the one about the figure 8 not being an issue - any rigid belay device will be more problematic). however, it is interesting to compare the grigri which is rigid also.

caves.org/section/vertical/… caves.org/section/vertical/…
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Beginning Climbers
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