Petzl Nomics vs Grivel Force/Master Alloy

What your foot work suck or something Kirby? I would have thought a big boy like you would have to use their feet. On steep ice good technique gets really important if you want to have any arms left.

Point is, the specific tool doesn't matter a whole lot when you are are looking at Jon's list above. Good write up btw Jon. Not that we agree on every comment :) What does matter is how easy they are to get in and more importantly how easy they are to get out. Much of the choices you will make are defined by your skill set and your personal perception of how well you think the tool may or may not climb well.

I've climbed 5+ (we use to call it 6) with a Piolet and current 6 with Nomics, Ergo, Cobra, Fusions, Raptor and the X Dream. I could just as easily pick a color I like to support the claim which is "best". They all climb well enough by comparison.

Everyone generally ends up with a favorite..because it matches their current abilities and techniques. I'm not very critical of ice tools short of a durability issue. Pommel and pick failures come to mind off hand. It use to be shaft and pick failures. No big deal. Things like that are annoying. Having to adapt my technique to a specific tool...not so much.

Single swing sticks are awesome as long as the effort required to remove them is similar. It is a two step dance on tools.

Asuuming of course you have a clue on how to use your feet. Climbing in crampons hasn't changed much since Laurent Grivel invented the 12 point crampon in 1929. Figure most have that sorted out well enough. May be not if you are fixated on how well a tool works. Always good to have something to bitch about though.

'73 Terro, and a Nomic from '09.

Forgot...

Much of "good" attributes bestowed on a mixed tool is the quality of the steel and temper used on the pick. Soft steel is stickier and noticable on rock as "good" as opposed to something heat tempered to a glass hardness and "slick" on rock.

How steep the terrain is gets addressed one way or the other by the angle or multi angles of the shaft and grips. Rigidity of the shaft also effects the pick shift (as does shaft angles and grips).

Some like a very rigid shaft, other just as skilled like a little flex in the shaft. Tools available for both tastes.

Tool choices are generally made by the terrian you do climb in or envision yourself climbing on. Eastern ice, Canadian water falls, Cascadian winter mixed, full on over hanging bolted "M" routes with no ice in sight or a Chamonix winter season. Top ropes, leading or soloing. May be all three? What you choose for a tool might be really important...or not important at all.

Come on Dane, you know me by now. I'm just talking shit and trying to be funny. What the hell do I know?

Big Boy? Technique? Tell me about it! I miltary press 225 and row 95 lb dumb bells and cant TR M6 clean. Thank God ice isnt overhanging. Sucks being fat and too lazy to do anything about it! Haha.

It seems everytime we start talking about what ice tool is the best for whatever somebody, not just you brings up the fact that the choice of tools doesn't matter. That footwork is all you need. If it's not footwork it's back in my day.... oh shit, you did just brought that up. Sorry.

You know I sincerely still feel bad about the misunderstanding concerning the Arcteryx Dually.

Kirby the point I was trying to make is don't let the tools get in the way of enjoying the climbing. I have tools that I really like and tools I don't like all that much. I own most of what has been listed here. But I only climb on one or two of them if it is serious for me. They happen to fit my lazy techniques. But I am not fool enough to believe that one is any better than the other on water ice the majority of the time.

I find the grip equally as important as the pick. Both will save you energy if they fit you and what you are doing.

Terro is still cool and fun to climb with...bad grip obviously makes WI5 a little harder with one :)

Just because I don't like a tool doesn't mean you won't. Just because one guy says a tool is a POS doesn't mean it actually is. Or what he is climbing on is the best tool for you.

BITD?..with a few decades of continious ice climbing and now having used literally dozens of tools I have an opinion on ice tools based on my own experience :-) As you said previous, "to each their own".

Just an opinion nothing more.

Here is a fun example. Jon in his comments seemed to really dislike the new Petzl Quark. Same exact head and if IRC same exact angle as the Nomic. A tool that Jon does at least tolerate if he still owns a pair. Only different between the tow is handles. My buddy Jack and I liked the Nomic for WI6 stuff. He used a Nomic exclusivly there until sponsored by another company. But when Jack came to Chamonix he brought the new Quark and pulled M9/10 with it no problem. Ueli use to climb everyhing with a Nomic. And like Jack he had a choice of any tool he wants. You most often see Ueli on a Quark as well these days. The BD sponsored climbers are on the green Fusion or a Cobra and now the what ever else is new. Sure there are differeneces...and the differences are know if you've had ato climb on everything. But do the differences matter? If they did and you wanted to win, every competitor would be using the same tool at the comps.

Think the local practice ice and I susepct one tool will dominate....because the conditions are so similar.

I know Jon, I have a good feel for how he climbs and what he has done. I'd climb with him anytime. Even if he uses a Grivel tool that isn't my choice. Grivel is Steve House's choice how ever...and again Steve has a choice as well. My bet is BD would pay House more than Grivel does given the chance. But it aint always about money is it? I don't care what Jon/Steve/Ueli or Jack thinks is the best ice tool or the worse. But I respect his opinion based on their experience.

Dane, thank you for writing down all this information down. I really was just trying to be funny. You made alot of good points and I will remember them next time I disagree with someone, and not just about ice tools. I was very narrow minded after I had a pair of X Dreams in my hands at the end of last season. I've toned it down a little since then. Now I just say take a lap with one kind of tool in one hand and other kind in the other. See which one you like better. I feel if you're in the market for new ice tools you should try as many tools as you can get your hands on. There's an ice tool out there for everyone. I started writing on this thread to find another tool besides the X Dream.

I understand we all have opinions. I mean heck, what do I know! I just starting leading 4s safely. By safely I mean I'm not at the topout debating on whether to fire a screw in because I'm so pumped. Funny how when it all comes together leading steep ice is kinda anticlimactic. Therefore what's my opinion worth anyway? Really I was making a joke. I didn't want to offend.

Now if I could only explain to you the math pertaining to buying that jacket way back when we would really be on the same page

Are you two going to start admiring each other's mustaches next?

No explanation or apology required. It was just a jacket. Easy enough to have a misunderstanding or a typo via email.

"There's an ice tool out there for everyone."

I'll try to be more succint on how I feel about that. Again just my opinion. When you are talking any of the modern tools from least expensive $100 X Monster or bit more for a Trango Raptor to the $300+ BD Cobra or $1500 per tool Grivel Reparto Corse Carbon Force all of them will climb ice and mixed a lot better/easier than the previous generations of ice tools.

It will take some effort and technique (which anyone can generally adapt to easy enough ) for most of us to get the benefits that every tools offers. I was serious when I said I could just as easily pick by color as by tool and still be happy at the end result and how the tool will climb. Just might take a little more effort on my part to adapt my techique or mustache to better match the tool.

Of course how a tool climbs is only a small part of the decision in the grand scheme.

Some tools are better than others for a specific use. Not sure the best way to test "which is better" is by having a different tool in each hand. That might tell you which tool your skill set/techniques work the best with. Might not tell you which is the better tool however. Way too many other issues to think about. I might suggest using a pair of tools to make a decision on the tools you really want. You are more apt to change your technique to take advantage of the tool with a pair in your hands than different tools in each had. Some of the more simple tools only take a simple swing to get them to stick. Often times a more technical tool will require a downward chop instead of a more natural and simple swing. You can guess which one a first time ice climber will like more from the get go.

Just a jacket? You sell all kinds of gear. I believe I heard never again so not only did I lose out on a Dually for 250 bones I missed out on some gloves and pants too. I look at it as a learning experience.. I learned not to piss off someone who can help! Haha

At $1500/per tool they should come with something that floats them back in hands if you drop them?

I have tried lots of different tools so I guess I know what you're saying. I used a pair of Ergos last year and thought they worked well. I was very skeptic at first but felt good and were easy to swing.

Tell me about it. My jacket rode up over my harness a few days ago. There's a small part that made things a little more difficult.

Interesting you don't like that way of testing tools. I've been shown that by two different professional ice climbers. Yet again.. Different opinions. I liked the Nomics my first day ice climbing but I didn't know WTH was going on the first day so..

Ray Pinpillage wrote:Are you two going to start admiring each other's mustaches next?

Why thank you for noticing! See it's good to admire.

Kirby1013 wrote: Interesting you don't like that way of testing tools. I've been shown that by two different professional ice climbers.

Professional ice climbers? Interesting definition :-) I use to be one...or at least got paid for ice climbing anyway. So less impressed with opinion I guess if it is not a shared (read my) opinion :) Think about it. How do you use the tool? Do you want to find out what tool is "easier" to swing as a beginner? Or which one is a better tool once you adapt your (in a general sense not Kirby specifically) technigue and skills to?

I can look at an ice climber on a TR and likely hand you the tool that will be the easiest for you to use that day. Your swing and foot work will tell me much. But it might not be much of a tool your second year. There is a reason BD makes tools with different size grips, balance and different pick angles...generally jumping 2 degrees between tool models or pick use.

You used a Ergo on easy ice and liked it. As do I and one of the best Euopean professional ice climbers..Jeff Mercier. At least Mercier seems to use the Ergo "every where" including easy ice/alpine to M what ever. Not like he doesn;t have a choice in tools being sponsored by Petzl. My point is if you like the X Dream and liked the Ergo ( would seem obvious which is better on moderate ice) you know how to modify your own techniques to use a tool to best effect.

One in each hand? What would you learn short term verses long term? Still think that is still a good test after thinking about it? I do agree...the more tools you climb on the better informed you'll be to make a good choice on your own. Or just buy what your "pro" is using :-) Then learn how to climb like them !!!

"Never again"? I don;t generally stay pissed forever. A Pal Pal account will solve that Kirby.

Both are killer tools, I think the Nomic edges out the Grivel as being a more all around tool but the Grivel stands out as being a radical steep climbing machine extraordinare.

Head to BentGate if you get a chance they have the Nomic and the Force Master in there Ice Tool Demo Program. Judge for yourself.

Personally I love Petzl but have always had a soft spot for Grivel tools and there second to none hot-forging.

Dane wrote: Professional ice climbers? Interesting definition :-) I use to be one...or at least got paid for ice climbing anyway. So less impressed with opinion I guess if it is not a shared (read my) opinion :) Think about it. How do you use the tool? Do you want to find out what tool is "easier" to swing as a beginner? Or which one is a better tool once you adapt your (in a general sense not Kirby specifically) technigue and skills to? I can look at an ice climber on a TR and likely hand you the tool that will be the easiest for you to use that day. Your swing and foot work will tell me much. But it might not be much of a tool your second year. There is a reason BD makes tools with different size grips, balance and different pick angles...generally jumping 2 degrees between tool models or pick use. You used a Ergo on easy ice and liked it. As do I and one of the best Euopean professional ice climbers..Jeff Mercier. At least Mercier seems to use the Ergo "every where" including easy ice/alpine to M what ever. Not like he doesn;t have a choice in tools being sponsored by Petzl. My point is if you like the X Dream and liked the Ergo ( would seem obvious which is better on moderate ice) you know how to modify your own techniques to use a tool to best effect. One in each hand? What would you learn short term verses long term? Still think that is still a good test after thinking about it? I do agree...the more tools you climb on the better informed you'll be to make a good choice on your own. Or just buy what your "pro" is using :-) Then learn how to climb like them !!! "Never again"? I don;t generally stay pissed forever. A Pal Pal account will solve that Kirby.

So much for admiring each other...

You don't like the phrase pro climbers? I guess I could have wrote guides who are have sponsors. It was easier to write two words instead of four. I didn't write the words "Pro climbers" to impress you as I wouldn't venture a guess as to what would impress you. I wrote that because I'm surprised you wouldn't agree with two guys who's job it is to teach ice climbing. Not looking for to evaluatemy opinion. I just find it interesting that your is differs from theirs. I'm not sure what you're getting at as I used Nomics, Fusions and Cobras the first week of ice climbing. I thought the were all good except for the orange Fusions. The Fusions were fun on a mixed TR but ice they were horrible. I continued to enjoy the Nomics and Cobras until I found the X Dreams. So no I didn't dislike one tool the first day then use three years later. I used the same tool since day one. I tried others and enjoyed too but stuck with Nomics. Those pro climbers seconded the decision saying that either the Nomic or the Cobra was a good match.

That's interesting as I've never had a guide say one certain tool is for me. Rather I need to find the one ice tool that works for me or try these and tell me what you think. Then I made the decision for myself.

I used the Ergos at Trollville while attending last year's MWV Ice Fest. I think there's moderate ice there. I wasn't on it. Again I'm surprised.. You using the word moderate. Ever since I climbed a 3 that was chandeliered from top to bottom I let conditions dictate grade. I go to these events so I can get as many tools in my hand as possible. I used almost every tool on the market that weekend even the Quark. It was a good tool to climb steep ice with. I didn't write that I used it because I knew I would. The Ergos on the other hand looked like overkill. I tried anyway as I wanted to try every tool and make my decision afterwards.

By taking two diferent tools up a pitch I can see what hand is being used more than the another. Which arm gets worn out due to the tool being harder to pull outta the ice and what tool takes more swings to get into the ice. I do think it's a great idea. If I didn't I would try it out and see what happens. This reminds of all the people who said X Dreams suck on ice or Quarks suck on rock. I reply "have you tried them" They say No never picked up the Quarks or I just know the X Dreams are no good on ice.

I believe your exact words were "we will never do business again" You know there's books and computer games for seniors to exercise their memory. hehehe

I had a chance to try the master alloy and the nomic out back to back at the Ouray ice fest. The guide for my Intro to mix class let me try his force. He used it the previous day to climb bridal veil, so it must climb steep ice well. As a total newb, take my opinion lightly.. but i thought the force was great for mixed and the nomic worked better on ice for me... but my swing sucks and i like the weight of the nomic..

Dane wrote:this.....when they become available. Nomic climbs ice extemely well and mixed very well. ...X-Dream and Mtn are good. More like the Petzl tools....

I am curious about the Tech Machine and X-Dream. Anybody have experience climbing on those? I am curious about a change of tools and learning about the pro's and cons of each tool.

As a frame of reference, I currently have a pair of 2nd Gen Nomics and have climbed the Nomic line for 5+ years. I have access to a pair of Ergo's if I am going to be on mixed. I also have a pair Grivel X-Monsters and will use them periodically just to mix things up.

I have heard some people talk about the x-dream and say that pick needs some modifying (filing) to get it to remove. Apparently somebody having pick-stick issues. Apart from that I haven't heard too much.

chadnuesmeyer wrote:I have heard some people talk about the x-dream and say that pick needs some modifying (filing) to get it to remove. Apparently somebody having pick-stick issues. Apart from that I haven't heard too much.

I didn't have to touch my picks on my X-Dreams. My friends X-All Mountains will bury themselves like excalibur from time to time, but generally they're good too.

If you ever want to try them out, I'm in SLC.

I pulled the trigger on the tech machines, couldn't pass up the 25% off sale. Hopefully they'll be here at the end of this week because this cold snap is forming up ice! I've climbed both generation nomics and quarks. I'll post more after some mileage...