Adding/moving bolts at Stone Mountain NC

Beer and buds on me next time yall are up at stone, then we will continue the debate!

Does this mean I get to chop the bolts on Laurel Robbins at L.K. and the bolts on Diff Richie's 5.7at Old Baldy? They were retro-bolted by North Carolina locals whose ethics have done more harm to the rock than any of the other areas I have climbed in across the Country!

A lack of ethics, I think, is what actually harms the rock. But checkout Chattanooga, Shannon if you want to see the environmental effect of unrestrained, over-entitled millenials with bolt guns and no concept of ethics. We are now certainly the epicenter of unapologetic convenience bolting, retro-bolting and even chipping. And in Chattanooga, this is fueled in part by the profit motive; after all, we're the "Boulder of the East." We actually have non-profit foundations giving grants to sport climbers to go out and bolt more climbs. The correct term for this, I believe, is sanctioned vandalism since most of the new bolting has been done illegally. This Stone Mountain discussion seems refreshingly quaint to me in comparison to what's happening in Chattanooga.

Cheers, Meme Guy! Likewise if you ever make it out to AZ!

Elaborating for Va Genius; Back in the early eighties, Rich Gottlieb established a landmaark route that I was able to be in on. He had already climbed three pitches drilling only one bolt to link up with Fathom. He came back with me to finish the last two pitches and I got to lead the first couple of pitches, that day I will never forget! His beta for the belay was a single number 2 freind in a slot at a two foot stance. Belaying off my harness, looking between my feet, trying not to stand on the freind sticking out of its hole was exhillerating to say the least. Rich repeated the crux third pitch that day by placing two small stoppers one at a time in a tiny solution pocket and pulling them out together until they wedged. When Rich named it "Laurel Robbins" it was to honor Royal Robbins. Any of you old timers remember him? Sixteen years later his crux pitch gets turned into a sport climb and you elitist continue to babble over a 5.4R that can be protected by a big bro! Really.

shannon stegg wrote:Elaborating for Va Genius; Back in the early eighties, Rich Gottlieb established a landmaark route that I was able to be in on. He had already climbed three pitches drilling only one bolt to link up with Fathom. He came back with me to finish the last two pitches and I got to lead the first couple of pitches, that day I will never forget! His beta for the belay was a single number 2 freind in a slot at a two foot stance. Belaying off my harness, looking between my feet, trying not to stand on the freind sticking out of its hole was exhillerating to say the least. Rich repeated the crux third pitch that day by placing two small stoppers one at a time in a tiny solution pocket and pulling them out together until they wedged. When Rich named it "Laurel Robbins" it was to honor Royal Robbins. Any of you old timers remember him? Sixteen years later his crux pitch gets turned into a sport climb and you elitist continue to babble over a 5.4R that can be protected by a big bro! Really.

And let me direct you back to the CCC and their 'ethics', they purchased it back in 2006 finally making access legal. Since then, I know they've been fairly open about chopping illegal bolts. Maybe you should contact them instead of crying about it on our 5.4R debate that can be easily protected by sacking up and leading?

"exhilarating" or dumb as all hell, bad example if you ask me

VaGenius wrote:yet some people still defend it.

Shit no man

shannon stegg wrote:Elaborating for Va Genius; Back in the early eighties, Rich Gottlieb established a landmaark route that I was able to be in on. He had already climbed three pitches drilling only one bolt to link up with Fathom. He came back with me to finish the last two pitches and I got to lead the first couple of pitches, that day I will never forget! His beta for the belay was a single number 2 freind in a slot at a two foot stance. Belaying off my harness, looking between my feet, trying not to stand on the freind sticking out of its hole was exhillerating to say the least. Rich repeated the crux third pitch that day by placing two small stoppers one at a time in a tiny solution pocket and pulling them out together until they wedged. When Rich named it "Laurel Robbins" it was to honor Royal Robbins. Any of you old timers remember him? Sixteen years later his crux pitch gets turned into a sport climb and you elitist continue to babble over a 5.4R that can be protected by a big bro! Really.

Cool story, Shannon.

This thread is just a soap box for "the curmudgeon". Certain details are left out because it makes it easier for him to build a case. The route being referred to at Laurel Knob is Have and Not Need (Begoon Offenbacher). Have and Not Need is a direct line straight up, established after Laurel Robbins. The FA party of HNN didn't realize Laurel Robbin's existed until they got higher up where on the crux 3rd pitch there was a single bolt. They had already established the previous two pitches, which the first pitch doesn't have any natural pro (5 bolts) and the second pitch has some, but without bolts would be very exciting. Maybe 2-3 natural pieces for almost 170' of 5.9. Eddie Begoon is a pretty respectable guy and the FA'er of many bold routes on the east coast. There was no malicious intent when he bolted the direct line over LR. Honestly though, the last two pitches of LR/HNN would not be repeated in their original state. The 3rd pitch has a few sections of 5.9 and 5.10 that would probably be R/X rated. With the amount of information that existed at the time of the FA, it is no wonder this mistake was made. Most know that the line is deserving of the accidental retro, just like TF knows the bolt at the start of Boot Hill is probably also warranted. Thus it still exists.

Well there you have it folks, Tom adding some pretty relevant info. The debate continues.

CJC wrote:What a ridiculously lame 'explanation'. You can try to rationalize it all you want but the fact is someone knowingly bolted over a bold ground-up line. Doesn't matter if the intent was 'malicious' or not, the ends don't justify the means. Disrespectful to bolt it anyway and lame for people like you to defend it.

You can call it lame all you want, it is just me retelling the history of your generation as I know it. Someone can clarify it if they feel I am incorrect, because I was not in the climbing scene when this incident occurred. Me saying that LR in it's original state wouldn't be climbed is merely a factual statement, not a defense of the action Chris. While it is disrespectful to retro someones line, it is hard to justify the need to erase the other 1.5 pitches that don't overlap with LR, especially when the FA'er only learns of the mistake in the last 30' after having climbed 450'. If the line was really a problem it should have been erased over 20 years ago when it occurred. The mention of LR is only an attempt to be inflammatory by someone that enjoys being inflammatory to any topic remotely related to the subject. There are times in the history of NC climbing where subjects like these can be categorized in the gray area. I don't see anyone up in arms about the additions made to Boot Hill, not even the FA'er. In the case of LR/HHN, it should be up to the FA'ers to come to some sort of agreement, which for all we know could be the reason why the two lines still mutually exist.

Shannon; I am generaly not in favor of bolt chopping, but it sounds like you are a long time local who had a part in the first ascents of the routes you mention. I am not a NC local, nor have I climbed there, but it appears as if you have every right to chop those bolts if you feel like it is appropriate. Like a friend of mine said regarding one of our local crags: "We are the locals, and we should stop complaining and just fix it."

If it is from some age before, it is good to keep in mind current users though. It is easy to think "my way is right" when you were climbing in an area before others and get stuck in sclerotic thinking as a way to hold on to the personal "good 'ol times". It is worth considering when deciding how to handle these situations.

Two really good points the V man made:

Yes, we are still growing weed down here, it's just the gym season aka indoor right now haha

"knowing that there are still greater challenges laid down by some seriously hardcore motherfuckers back when, means a lot to me. I don't think I'm alone in that."

You certainly are not alone in that!

VaGenius wrote:Shannon, from my perspective, you have every right to feel pissed about what went down on Laurel Robbins. I think a lot of people can't wrap their heads around the transcendant experiences that riding the tiger can bring and what preservation of those experiences means to the persons on the FA party as well as the community at large. Out here Sandstone Samurai is a good example. It's 5.11 X, hundred foot fall potential on multiple pitches, nobody wants to (well, almost nobody) climb this thing, at least nobody fully in control of their faculties, for the most part. Shannon, I guess my question is, did you talk to Eddie or Offenbacher back when, or since? Was an attempt made to work it out, do you feel the bolts need to go all this time later, or is it water under the bridge? Solutions exist to most problems, usually communication is a good place to start.

We are talking about the master of holding decades old grudges. I cant think of any of his posts that weren't about something that rubbed him wrong. They had their chance to fix any wrong doing years ago. Now that line is published in guide books. I am all for bold lines, but i would be pissed as an out of towner if i got up there to find the bolts gone and the route now r/x. While you guys think what your doing is supporting the local tradition, really you just took the bait. I doubt you would get a honest answer about any discussions the two fa parties had. It seems as if Shull didn't even want to include him in the guide as being a part of the fa. There are plenty of routes on that face that are preserved in the original x rating. Right next door is Hone Ranger. I do find it interesting that so many routes have been added to the Laurel Knob section, but Laurel Robbins has yet to be included. It is a little difficult to relate this transgression to the op, because you cant accidentally add a bolt to entrance crack or any other route on that face now that it is published in guide books. Like i said, at the time of HNN fa, there was no information out there. So back to the op.

It's raining in the SE if anyone is wondering why we are digging up a dead horse to beat it again

CJC wrote:Sounds like someone thinks the burden of preserving a FA in its original state falls to the people who first climbed it, instead of people who come by later adding bolts, realizing they're treading on someone else's route, and proceeding anyway. Lol whatever man. Keep telling yourself whatever it is you need to support your misguided 'ethics'. Like the claim that the passage of time has reconciled any original wrongdoing. Or that someone who disagrees with your opinion is a flawed individual worthy of derision whose opinion may be dismissed.

I believe erasing bolts on a published route is a terrible precedence to set, just like throwing beer cans off the North Face of LG. It makes the eraser culpable for future incidents that may occur. It sucks what happened, but for all we knew they already hashed it out and we're just being played. It is funny that you say I have misguided ethics when I have been supporting traditional ethics on the forums here for years. Just go back to the first thread he posted with Wayne to see why he is worthy of derision. I had a lot of respect for him until he showed up slinging insults and digging up every piece of dirt from the last 30 years. Don't believe me, just look at the post history. Even Sean was baffled thinking they had buried the hatchet. It is worthy of dismissal because there is a clear difference between what the OP was asking and LR. Maybe it is just me, but it seems obvious Laurel Knob is his soap box.

VaGenius wrote: Shannon, I guess my question is, did you talk to Eddie or Offenbacher back when, or since? Was an attempt made to work it out, do you feel the bolts need to go all this time later, or is it water under the bridge? Solutions exist to most problems, usually communication is a good place to start.

^ This.

C'mon, it's raining here so why not indulge us?

Not to mention it's like 70 fucking degrees what the fuck?