Anything wrong with this PAS?

I came up with a personal anchor that I like and seems to work for me, but I wanted you guys to have a look at it and tell me it's safe enough.

It's made from a 12ish ft. length of 7mm nylon accessory cord. I've run it through my belay loop and tied an overhand in bight in the middle so that the bight formed has my belay loop running through it. Then on each loose end, I tie another overhand on a bight with a nice tail so that each end has a loop to put a carabiner through (I tie the tails up with another overhand; sort of a backup, more a way to keep the tails shorter). Then in the middle of each strand, I tie another overhand on a bight forming another loop on each that I can put a carabiner through.

Essentially, I have two strand that I can use to clip into two different bolts or both to one bolt, and I can use either the full strand or half a strand to keep as much slack out as possible. I usually keep the bights at the end of the strands clipped onto a single locker, and the bights in the middle of the strands clipped onto a wiregate with the wiregate also clipped onto the locker and the locker clipped onto my front gear loop. The loops in the middle keep it short enough that it doesn't dangle in the way.

The pictures do a much better job of explaining it.

I use a clove hitch on the rope to tie in whenever I can, but for times when I need to untie or just get into a piece or bolt quickly or temporarily, I use this.

Another nice thing is it's cheap, and I wouldn't mind replacing it frequently.

I don't jug on it or anything, but maybe that's something to avoid since it's attached through my belay loop. I've heard mixed messages on where you should attach anchors and daisy chains, but I think in general people are overly scared about attaching anything to their belay loop because of Todd Skinner. I don't think we need to have that debate here again.

So am I going to die? Or is this a good system if it works for me?

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Absolute overkill! Use it in the field and you'll see why. It's going to be a clusterfuck. LESS IS MORE...

It's awkward, bulky, and overkill everywhere except for its master point. You have redundancy built in, yet your master point is a single strand, attached to another single point (your belay loop). You do not need a PAS. You certainly do not need this monstrous PAS. Will you die? No, probably not. Is it a good system? No.

Fun - another PAS thread. It's been a while. Kicking my feet up and watching the action...

So just use a sling is the consensus?

I don't have a problem with the idea, but there are better ways to do this, say with like a double runner girthed through your tie in points with a super 8 on it, or the two dozen opinions you are sure to get in this thread. XTRA Bonus: you won't have to tie stopper knots to backup your overhands (I admit I have never seen that before!)

Just using a sling (or two) is an option but not necessarily the best of all possible solutions. I'm one of those folks who think a PAS installed on the harness and ready to go at all times has value. I do think yours is too specialized, however.

I know, an installed PAS an extra bit of faffery and in some circumstances is easily fabricated when needed from the slings you may have on you anyway. But having it there has many advantages, All these things have been mentioned elsewhere, but often they do not appear together.

When seconding and you get to the belay, you can clip in with it immediately and you're safe while you and/or the belayer make further arrangements. (You won't be pulling out and girth-hitching runners all the time for this.)

You've got something ready to go when rappelling, including clip-in points for extending the device if that's what you do. This is particularly useful when there is scrambling involved before reaching rap anchors and you are carrying the ropes, which often pin all the slings underneath (yeah, we should always think of that ahead of time).

You can quickly and securely clip into pro on a lead if it becomes necessary to go off belay for some reason.

If you have to prussik up the rope, you already have a long sling for one of your attachments.

It is handy if you have to improvise some aid moves, either because you can't pull the crux or because weather has rendered the rock slippery.

It is extremely useful if you need to hang with both hands free while seconding in order to work on a recalcitrant piece, assuming you can place a piece you already cleaned for aid. This is way better than trying to hang on the ropes, which can be diagonal and in any case are so stretchy you may end up too low.

It is very useful for speeding up multipitch climbing. When leading, if I can get in a good single piece as part of the anchor, I'll clip to it immediately and call off belay before building the rest of the anchor. The second can start getting ready earlier, rather than remaining on belay the entire time I'm building the anchor. When seconding, although I always use the rope as the primary anchor connection, I also leave the PAS on the best piece. When the leader calls off belay, I'll strip the anchor down to the one piece and the PAS and so be ready to go with little or no delay when the leader calls on belay.

For comfort, I girth-hitch the PAS to the belay loop so that the harness isn't continually pinched together. I'm not in the least bit worried about wearing the belay loop; the PAS doesn't get weighted nearly enough during the entire lifetime of the harness to create even the slightest sign of wear. I do periodically move the girth-hitched spot to distribute the wear, but am certain that this is not really necessary.

Too Bulky, stick to manufactured PAS backed up by lead rope.

Far more then you would ever need. I think two nylon slings girth hitched to your tie in points with locker on each is plenty.

Fred 4 wrote:So just use a sling is the consensus?

Yup, Although I do appreciate the attempt at custom climbing gear. Sometimes the best thing out there isn't off the shelf and requires a little work. This doesn't seem to be one of them yet.

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your setup is absolutely and utterly fine for a rappel safety ... the only issue is the bulk

a "better" setup IMO is an ~3m 8mm dynamic half rope terminated with a barrel knot and with alpine butterflies in the middle

8mm rope vs PAS extended

here it is folded up, its not that much bulkier than a PAS

8mm rope vs PAS folded

note that a PAS or sling or even daisy (clipped to ONE pocket) works just fine for a rappel safety despite the "deadly dyneema" hysteria on the intrawebs ... you LEARN not to let in slack or fall on static materials ...

however there may be instances where you want a tether that one may actually fall on, if you dont use the rope as a tether itself that is ... for instances setting up TR anchors right on a cliffs edge where there is no trees to rap off/secure oneself and the bolts are right on the edge ...

as you can see below ... in such a case an 8mm half rope in new condition should hold ONE factor 2 fall ... after that retire it ... and if you are taking factor 2 falls on a tether, whack yourself on the side of yr head with that #6 camalot

note the impact force of the first drop is UNDER 6 KN ... this is a very survivable drop ... using slings/PASes usually put forces in excess of the 12KN max impact force that the UIAA mandates for dynamc ropes

Étude sur les longes utilisées en escalade

if you simply want a poor mans PAS ... then take a nylon sling and put 2 overhands in it ... itll serve the same purpose ... at 1/4 the price ... this is what i show new climbers for a personal safety ....

poor mans PAS sling

to put it simply ... do you want a tether for rapping and other places where you WONT fall with slack ... or do you want dynamic fall protection?

;)

I enjoy my purcell prusik (look it up), but I always clove in with the climbing rope as my primary tie in. Its all that is needed if you are swapping leads.

Adam Paashaus wrote:I enjoy my purcell prusik (look it up), but I always clove in with the climbing rope as my primary tie in. Its all that is needed if you are swapping leads.

This. Clove in with the rope, while climbing. Use one or two double-length nylon slings while rapping. Nothing extra needed.

Fred 4 wrote:So just use a sling is the consensus?

No...as mentioned above...just use the climbing rope is the consensus. Stronger, easier, dynamic.

A caver would call this a cows tail. It is used for vertical work pretty much as you described. It might be seen as overkill for climbing, since a pas weighs less and has more tie/clip in points. I have brought something like this for aiding, but found a daisy more friendly because it has so many more clip options.

In vertical caving it works well because you need it for very specific lengths as backup for your third ascender, passing rebelays, and to pass knots.

Keep it simple!!! For multi pitch each person ties in to each end of the rope. You never untie from this! You also have a ling sling (I usually use a double length but you can Use anything longer) girth hitched to your harness with a locking biner on the end. When you reach the anchor, build it, then clip your sling into the anchor. Next clove hitch your rope to the anchor, this is now adjustable from right next to the anchor to the length of your sling. I will try to show later a picture.

Tyler Newcomb wrote:Keep it simple!!! For multi pitch each person ties in to each end of the rope. You never untie from this! You also have a ling sling (I usually use a double length but you can Use anything longer) girth hitched to your harness with a locking biner on the end. When you reach the anchor, build it, then clip your sling into the anchor. Next clove hitch your rope to the anchor, this is now adjustable from right next to the anchor to the length of your sling. I will try to show later a picture.

Quicker setup: build the anchor, clove your rope to the masterpoint with a locker. Done.

No need for the sling in this scenario. It's pointlessly redundant and limiting.

VaGenius wrote:My experience...has convinced me that there are two distinct types of climbers: those who use their minds to eliminate clutter, clusterfuckery, and excess weight from their harnesses and racks, and those who carry triple or more of what they really need to theoretically at some point use this ballast and therefore justify its bulk and general uselessness.

I'm not in either of those groups. I routinely carry and use a PAS. I explained above why it has a broad range of multiple uses, most of which speed up some aspect of multipitch trad climbing. The idea goes back to that international master of excess weight and custerfuckery, Mark Twight, who recommends the technique in Extreme Alpinism. It appears that Twight is in your mindless group along with me, company I'm happy to be keeping.

You can, of course, put an PAS on an idiot and you'll still have an idiot, but it isn't the PAS that made them an idiot. There are legitimate uses for the thing, and the failure of certain individuals to understand those uses doesn't change that.

VaGenius wrote:You mistook what I was saying.

Fair enough, and apologies for the snarkiness. By the way, I and I think others have taken to using PAS as a generic term for a "strong daisy." In fact, I use a Chain Reactor as you do.

VaGenius wrote:You mistook what I was saying. First, I'm a huge Twight fan, second, I have a Chain Reactor on both of my regular use harnesses. I meant no disrespect, which I thought came thru in my clove+PAS closing statement (your honor). My point above was that complicating things PAST a PAS and a clove is virtually always a timewasting obfuscation and an impediment to efficient movement. My Reactors speed things up, are strong and adjustable, and don't hang up on protrusions. All the cord and loop the loops seem snag prone, bulky, and questionably safer. I enjoy your posts and find your perspectives well thought out and expressed for the most part. Check out the Chain Reactor sometime when your PAS is up for replacement; I like mine a lot more than the dyneema models.

ive used the PAS for years in fact i only retired it at the start of this year since it was 5 years old and used almost daily

a regular sling tied with overhands ... or a 8mm cord with butterfly loops will do everything a PAS will do and is not much bulkier ...

it is however substantially cheaper ... and can serve a variety of purposes such as cheap bail anchors

as to snagging ... the PAS snags just as well as anything else ... i used it for years leading trad and it snags on cams, on features, etc ...

honestly ... i simply could no longer justify spending 30$ on a single use item ... if i need a "PAS" ill just take that 120 cm nylon sling which i have anyways and tie 2 overhands in it ...

or for actual fall protection use a short length of dyamic rope with knots in the middle ...

;)