Do you stick clip? Why or why not?

I definitely deserve the wrath. It's a totally weak rant. I'm just being honest, I don't know what to tell you! Yes I am fairly new to climbing (2 years) and perhaps my views on stick-clipping are reflective of my rookie perspective, and not having ever been on anything higher than a 10. It also may reflect my jaded and depressed attitude in life currently. Or maybe I am a prick.

All I know is, the route is the way it is. Climb it. It's fun to watch people climb the beginning of routes and grunt and sweat up to the first bolt. Do I want to watch people top rope? No. I think half the fun of going to a crag for the day is checking out the styles and sends of others. You have time in between your climbs to scope out the other action. So yes, to that extent the things other people do at a climb interest me.

None of this keeps me up at night, but it's a thread about stick clipping so I thought I'd share my thoughts.

CJC wrote:Is there really a multi-page thread debating the use of a stick to clip the first bolt on a sport climb?

there are several

Russ Keane wrote: If someone brought a ladder.

What about all the "gumbies" who climb Everest every year? Hardly anyone would ever get through the Khumbu without the ladders, nor would 99% make it to the top without fixed lines the whole way and supplemental oxygen. Even the absolute best climbers on the planet (Ueil, Simon, Conrad, etc.) use the ladders. Are they in a way "stick clipping" through the initial and very first section of Everest? A very stretched analogy I know, nonetheless their using some sort of "aid", if you will, to assist with what could be a very dangerous section; same with the first 20 or so feet a sport climb.

This is a whole different debate in it's self, totally different type and style of climbing, still thought provoking however. It seems that everyone is always debating the Everest debacle year after year. In a way it seems like they may be "stick clipping" to the top of the world. I'm a very unqualified individual to give an opinion on big mountain style and ethics, but I do have an opinion nonetheless. I think all the fixed lines and crap is in bad taste, and has lead to the shit show on Everest.

Personally, stick clipping doesn't bother me too much, I understand not everyone is out to be a trad master badass. If it keeps you out of the hospital and away from a stack of medical bills, I would say it's totally worth it. I don't really use one because I would rather spend my day climbing single pitch trad as opposed to sport, thats just my cup of tea, also probably why I cant climb 5.13 sport. In my neck of the woods we refer to them as "Chicken Sticks" for obvious reasons.

rockandice.com/lates-news/t…

This article talks about the inevitable surge of soon to be "sport" climbers taking it to the crag. Which in my opinion will lead to more gumbies, boom-box, lack of ethics, accidents and ultimately access issues and closure of climbing areas. Again, off topic and a whole different can of worms. Probably shouldn't have posted this but I've already typed it so whatever. Maybe I'll start a whole different thread to debate the Rock and Ice article.

Jonathan Dull wrote: ...will lead to more gumbies, boom-box, lack of ethics, accidents and ultimately access issues and closure of climbing areas.

Roadside Crag, RRG. For that matter, the majority of RRG is that way now. Also, Pilot Mountain is a total fucking shitshow. Maybe it should be a different thread, but I agree with you and R&I, the influx of new climber making the transition from gym to crag is going to change many aspects of climbing...

Sometimes. It depends on whether I feel like I can safely clip the first bolt.

NC Rock Climber wrote: Roadside Crag, RRG. For that matter, the majority of RRG is that way now. Also, Pilot Mountain is a total fucking shitshow. Maybe it should be a different thread, but I agree with you and R&I, the influx of new climber making the transition from gym to crag is going to change many aspects of climbing...

Ha! Our big family get together for Thanksgiving was on Friday this year. So headed out to Pilot on Thursday and saw one other party the entire day.

Wow! That is cool!

I always thought Pilot was a fun place for single pitch easy / moderate climbing. However, the crowds that I found the last few times I was there (2010 or 2011) really turned me off.

Unfortunately you're right about the typical weekend scene at Pilot these days. And given the way that the popularity of climbing is increasing it's only going to get worse.

I'd just like to point out a potential danger of stick clipping. I have a 25 ft (edit: it's 16' plus my reach) stick clip, so I can get a high second clip sometimes. Yesterday I clipped the carabiner and pulled down just like normal--successful stick clip, or so I thought. As I was climbing past the second bolt, the quickdraw slid down the rope to my belayer. Now I'm 25 feet off the ground with no protection. Luckily I wasn't flailing, so I just clipped the bolt quickly with a draw off my harness. If the draw hadn't popped off, and I fell going for the runout third bolt, I would have seen a potential of a 40 ft ground fall. My guess is that my quickdraw was resting on top of the bolt and that the nose hadn't gone through the bolt hole. The danger is that you can't see the bolt very well when stick clipping so high. My solution will be to inspect the stick clipped draw/bolt with binoculars before climbing and to also stick clip bolt every bolt going up to the highest bolt I want to clip in case I mess up the top bolt.

Pontoon-

That incident was clearly the stick clips fault.
Binoculars? It sounds like you need a telescope.

Tom

The only time I've used them are on some of the sea cliffs out here in CA, where missing the first bolt means you and your belayer are heading on a 30ft tumble into some rocky, cold water. Otherwise I would maybe consider it if I was trying to project a route that has a high first bolt and is stiff from the start.

Pontoon wrote: My guess is that my quickdraw was resting on top of the bolt and that the nose hadn't gone through the bolt hole. The danger is that you can't see the bolt very well when stick clipping so high.

This exact situation is how Josh Wharton broke his back...stick clipping up a route in Rifle to replace old bolts. Like you, the biner rested atop the bolt hanger. Unlike you, he was weighting (jugging up) the rope, it popped off as he reached the bolt, and he took the ride.

If it can happen to him, it clearly isn't just a stupid gumby mistake. Pay attention out there; these things can happen to any of us.

Thank you, JCM. It's the most dangerous thing I've ever done climbing, and I thought I was being safe. Also my painters pole is 16' it turns out so the most I was stick clipping was maybe 22-23 ft high. The total height I could have fallen from could have been maybe 30-35 ft.

I hope others learn from my mistake... It could have ended very badly.

One of my cool memories (from about 20 years ago) is from when I was belaying a guy who didn't quite make it to the first ( very high) bolt. He flew clear over my head and landed about five feet out from me. Undaunted (but with some seriously crimped toes), he went right back up for a second attempt, and made the clip, and got the rest of the route clean. It seemed admirable at the time.
If he had used a stick clip, he would have fallen, hung, then made it through the second time, and I definitely wouldn't have this as one of my more unique "old time memories." But, if he would have broken his ankle, it would be one of my "bad old time memories" (of which I have a few too many).
Personally, I'd have stick clipped that one, but nobody I knew used them back then, (and it would have take a really long stick).

No. I don't highball boulder either. If I'm too scared to clip the first bolt, I find something else to climb. If the crux is low enough to stick clip/ too high for comfort, I'll usually just come back when I'm stronger, use a pad, or write it off as a one move wonder.
It's called CLIMBING, not PROTECTING.
That said, I do feel all nice, warm , and fuzzy any time I make the first clip.
-Mackley
P.S. Remember the Leprechaun caught using a stick clip to steal draws at Smith? I'm sure he didn't teach himself that technique. IF YA DON'T WAN'T YOUR DRAWS STOLEN BY A LEPRECHAUN, DON'T TEACH A LEPRECHAUN TO STICK CLIP.

Robbie Mackley wrote:. It's called CLIMBING, not PROTECTING.

You know you're sport climbing right? It's got a whole lot of "protecting" drilled right into the rock already for you.

Not trying to knock on sport climbing, just seems like a double standard there.

First ascentionists would NEVER put a bolt too high if it wasn't safe to climb up to it without a stick clip. Come on pussies.

there are tons of routes put up with the intention that people will stick clip the first bolt

Pontoon wrote:I'd just like to point out a potential danger of stick clipping. I have a 25 ft stick clip, so I can get a high second clip sometimes. Yesterday I clipped the carabiner and pulled down just like normal--successful stick clip, or so I thought. As I was climbing past the second bolt, the quickdraw slid down the rope to my belayer. Now I'm 25 feet off the ground with no protection. Luckily I wasn't flailing, so I just clipped the bolt quickly with a draw off my harness. If the draw hadn't popped off, and I fell going for the runout third bolt, I would have seen a potential of a 40 ft ground fall. My guess is that my quickdraw was resting on top of the bolt and that the nose hadn't gone through the bolt hole. The danger is that you can't see the bolt very well when stick clipping so high. My solution will be to inspect the stick clipped draw/bolt with binoculars before climbing and to also stick clip bolt every bolt going up to the highest bolt I want to clip in case I mess up the top bolt.

That is scary. After recently listening to the Josh Wharton interview on the Enormocast podcast where they discussed Josh's stick-clipping accident in Rifle, I was reminded to always pull, tug and flip the rope around with force after a high stick clip where it's difficult to see the biner/hanger interaction to ensure the two are properly connected. Glad your situation didn't result in an accident.

CJC wrote: I know this is a bit OT but your statement brings up some interesting questions. Why does every face (bolted) climb have to be seen as strictly risk-free route? And any run-outs present on a rap-bolted route are criticized as 'artificially manufactured', undesirable and a violation of ethics? What is it about a cliff's lack of natural protection that leads climbers to the expectation of closely-spaced bolts and a safe, sterilized climbing experience? I know there are exceptions like JTree and the Meadows but the vast majority of bolted routes are expected to follow an extremely strict formula of beefy hardware at close, consistently spaced intervals and fixed descent anchors. Is this a reasonable expectation of route-developers, who might feel pressure to put in routes based on these expectations? Is the popularity of face climbing dependent on it being free from risk? Is this a sign of the pussification of American rock climbing? Fear of injuries from an aging climbing populace? The arguably inevitable conversion of crags into outdoor gyms? Are we just becoming less adventurous and disinclined towards risky endeavors as a society? Are the traditional (historical) values of courage, self-reliance and minimizing impact dying off with the men who created them? Is there really a multi-page thread debating the use of a stick to clip the first bolt on a sport climb? Truly a sign of the times...

this is not what is causing the pussification of american climbing. what IS weakening climbing is the addition of bolts to runouts on trad routes. i do enjoy runnouts on trad routes because that is simply part of the adventure. when im sport climbing, however, im typically above or around my grade capability and therefore don't like runouts as i am quite likely to fall and am not particularly interested in injuring myself as that means i can't climb temporarily. i really have no objection to rap bolting very safely, as long as two conditions are met: 1 it is a new climb that doesn't/hasn't gone traditionally 2 you aren't putting bolts in every 2-3 ft. i personally prefer to have a bolt at my shoulder when the last bolt is a ft or two below my feet. that being said i also enjoy the thrill of runnouts when im not pushing my boundaries. for example, if i am climbing easy stuff like less than 5.6, i like to protect myself for the first half and then run out the second (as long as i won't deck or hit a ledge if i fall). the key is balance: leave the spicy trad routes spicy and feel free to put up sport climbs if there isn't a pre-existing route.