Another useless ethics debate

no points for meeting the new guy. christopher lambert is the only highlander!

amazing how quickly a thread can wander.

george wilkey wrote:no points for meeting the new guy. christopher lambert is the only highlander! amazing how quickly a thread can wander.

The second you used the word "bolt" you lost me.

Evan Belknap wrote:There's no such thing as cheating; there's only lying.

Matt N wrote:Chalk, bolts, pin scars, etc all detract from a true 'onsight'. Therefore, only a ground-up FA may be an onsight.

i always find it amusing when 5.9 climbers lecture the world on the definition of onsighting. what does hiking have to do with onsighting?

there is no cheating in climbing....only lying.

george wilkey wrote:no points for meeting the new guy. christopher lambert is the only highlander! amazing how quickly a thread can wander.

Heather was hot BITD!

TO the OP..... I think you describe what was once known as ... The YoYo.

so why are you asking????

NC Rock Climber wrote:Heather was hot BITD!

I think going for the onsight is a fun exercise in ability and only after you've on sighted say .11a, can you really call yourself an .11a climber. IMO, if you climb the route first try without specific knowledge of necessary holds or sequences then it's an onsight, regardless of down climbing. Knowledge of holds or sequences but still your first try would be a flash and still pretty sweet.

Guy Keesee wrote:TO the OP..... I think you describe what was once known as ... The YoYo. so why are you asking????

I would also like to introduce a new term we call the hindsight. A hindsight is climbing a route ground up that you have sent before but not in a while. You might have fuzzy knowledge of the route and it's still worthy of a high five.

I would also like to introduce a new term we call the hindsight. A hindsight is climbing a route ground up that you have sent before but not in a while. You might have fuzzy knowledge of the route and it's still worthy of a high five.

Don Ferris wrote:I think going for the onsight is a fun exercise in ability and only after you've on sighted say .11a, can you really call yourself an .11a climber. IMO, if you climb the route first try without specific knowledge of necessary holds or sequences then it's an onsight, regardless of down climbing. Knowledge of holds or sequences but still your first try would be a flash and still pretty sweet.

@slim

Short of asking previous climbers methods, sequences, and holds they used you still have your onsight. Look at the route, develop your plan, down climb, figure it out in your own, just don't use the cheat codes.

Guy Keesee wrote:TO the OP..... I think you describe what was once known as ... The YoYo. so why are you asking????

Don Ferris wrote:I would also like to introduce a new term we call the hindsight. A hindsight is climbing a route ground up that you have sent before but not in a while. You might have fuzzy knowledge of the route and it's still worthy of a high five.

For me, onsighting's biggest appeal is answering a personal question: if I had climbed this route with no rope, would I have died? Answering this question is the only reason that onsighting is any more meaningful to me than any other ascent. The same principle applies to lead vs toprope. Looking at the climbing movement itself, toproping is, by eliminating extraneous activities(gear placement, clipping) a more pure experience, but knowing that I couldn't have done the climb without someone having previously gone to the top puts an asterisk next to the achievement.

So, in my book, as long as you don't fall, it's a flash; no beta(from any source)and it's an onsight. Downclimbing to the ground is not something I'm likely to do(I'm lazy, and also it would be slightly less satisfactory), but it still sounds like an onsight to me. Again, the point being "if I had done this with no rope, would I have died?"