DMM THOR biner

New wiregate biner by dmm. 28Kn close, 11Kn open! 36g

dmmclimbing.com/products/thor/

1kn more when open than Shield biners. Stop the presses.

Dang, if I didn't own about 200 biners already....

I still have my very useful SMC , Liberty and Eiger 70's era ovals doing just fine........NOT for QD sport use of course....but OK for hex nuts and long runners...

Ray Pinpillage wrote:1kn more when open than Shield biners. Stop the presses.

Overlooking 28 vs 24 for closed gate?

Eh, anyway, why bother posting any "news" at all here other than the typical troll stuff you guys like so much.

Pete Spri wrote: Overlooking 28 vs 24 for closed gate?

Can I ask why this matters at all? In what situations would you ever put more than 24kN force on a biner? I am not being argumentative, I just really don't see a point to it. If someone comes out with a 12 dollar biner that is rated to 30kN are you going to buy those instead? Seems like just a numbers game that is meaningless in real life. Again, not trying to argue for arguments sake. Inform me if there is some real purpose to this number that I am unaware of.

You mean you've never taken a 24kn fall? N00b.

Paul-B wrote: Can I ask why this matters at all? In what situations would you ever put more than 24kN force on a biner? I am not being argumentative, I just really don't see a point to it. If someone comes out with a 12 dollar biner that is rated to 30kN are you going to buy those instead? Seems like just a numbers game that is meaningless in real life. Again, not trying to argue for arguments sake. Inform me if there is some real purpose to this number that I am unaware of.

If you have the choice between 2 biners and one is stronger than the other and everything else is equal, why in the world wouldn't you want a stronger biner?

Aside from that, I think that there are plenty of rare situations that biners are put in where over-engineered would be MUCH more desired.

I'll leave Ray to his own demise; mocking negativity for no reason can keep to itself!

Pete Spri wrote: If you have the choice between 2 biners and one is stronger than the other and everything else is equal, why in the world wouldn't you want a stronger biner? Aside from that, I think that there are plenty of rare situations that biners are put in where over-engineered would be MUCH more desired. I'll leave Ray to his own demise; mocking negativity for no reason can keep to itself!

Hmmm... well "stronger" seems to be more of an academic exercise than anything else in this situation. There is no way you would ever reach 24 kN on a biner, so... why would it matter? Why would I pay more or replace biners with a new biner that can hold a higher theoretical load? One that I will absolutely never reach? And if you did even come close to this force.... your rope would break looong before that. Most are rated to 8-10kN, right?

I would be much more interested in knowing about fatigue strength. This seems more or less useless to me.

Paul-B wrote: Hmmm... well "stronger" seems to be more of an academic exercise than anything else in this situation. There is no way you would ever reach 24 kN on a biner, so... why would it matter? Why would I pay more or replace biners with a new biner that can hold a higher theoretical load? One that I will absolutely never reach? And if you did even come close to this force.... your rope would break looong before that. Most are rated to 8-10kN, right? I would be much more interested in knowing about fatigue strength. This seems more or less useless to me.

I think you are thinking about biners for the 85% bell curve of loads you expect them to take. But it's all good, stronger is better in my book.

Pete Spri wrote: I think you are thinking about biners for the 85% bell curve of loads you expect them to take. But it's all good, stronger is better in my book.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "85% bell curve of loads," seems you are trying to say that some percentage of falls will reach this inordinate force. I do not think that is true. I am not interested in doing the calculation, but that'd be an insane fall. And again, you are strengthing the already strongest link. Your rope will snap way before this, the sling attached to the biner will snap way before this your belay loop is likely only rated to 22kN or so... Again, seems worthless. Using your stronger is better logic, are you climbing on an 11mm rope?

If you belay with a steel HMS biner you can really take advantage of the increased strength of the Thor biner. It's next level (three standard deviations to the right) type shit.

Pete Spri wrote:New wiregate biner by dmm. 28Kn close, 11Kn open! 36g

While it doesn't matter to me, as a climber, the engineer in me thinks this is awesome! Thanks for sharing Pete. It's always cool to watch our progression in materials science.

Paul-B wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by the "85% bell curve of loads," seems you are trying to say that some percentage of falls will reach this inordinate force. I do not think that is true. I am not interested in doing the calculation, but that'd be an insane fall. And again, you are strengthing the already strongest link. Your rope will snap way before this, the sling attached to the biner will snap way before this your belay loop is likely only rated to 22kN or so... Again, seems worthless. Using your stronger is better logic, are you climbing on an 11mm rope?

I said all things being equal. And no, I climb on doubles most of the time. You and ray like to set up straw mans I suppose, that's what I get for arguing with trolls.

Though I don't really care about what the numbers say, I have had fatigued gear fail at much less than the rated strength (wire break off of an HB brass at the brass/wire interface during a soft bounce test). So if all is equal I would take gear rated stronger. With that said, I love DMM gear but have absolutely no intention of buying these crabs as the helium biner is the best ever made and is my go to clip!

Pete Spri wrote: I think you are thinking about biners for the 85% bell curve of loads you expect them to take. But it's all good, stronger is better in my book.

I think ratings are based on 3 sigma deviation, which means 99.7% of the carabiners made will load to this force at a minimum.

The higher closed strength seems pretty irrelevant, but the increased gate open strength seems like a really good development. Remember that thread a while back where those guys on Leaning Tower or Washington Column or whatever it was had two or three biners break in a fall, and the conclusion seemed to be that gate whip leading to open gates caused the breakage. Now these are wiregates, so hopefully will not whip as much, but still, stuff gets caught in gates and holds 'em open, etc.

Pete Spri wrote: I said all things being equal. And no, I climb on doubles most of the time. You and ray like to set up straw mans I suppose, that's what I get for arguing with trolls.

Do you climb on double harnesses? And double up slings on each draw? My point stands, you just call people trolls that disagree with you and have a valid arguement. 24kN vs 28kN means nothing. The 1kN improvement in gate open strength means something...but I'm not hurrying out to buy them.

DrApnea wrote:Though I don't really care about what the numbers say, I have had fatigued gear fail at much less than the rated strength (wire break off of an HB brass at the brass/wire interface during a soft bounce test). So if all is equal I would take gear rated stronger. With that said, I love DMM gear but have absolutely no intention of buying these crabs as the helium biner is the best ever made and is my go to clip!

I agree with most of what you say. As i said before, I would care much more about fatigue strength than adding a few kN to the impact force. However, these are not necessarily correlated. It may be in making it stronger for a single fall it fatigues more quickly. Buying a biner with a higher force rating does not necessarily mean that after catching 20 falls it will still be rated higher than one than originally had a slightly lower rating.

Paul-B wrote: 24kN vs 28kN means nothing.

It certainly does mean something.

And biners do break. Period. Stronger biners give you a better margin should your biner ever get in those unlikely situations. You realize that your argument could be boiled down to an old BD oval, or anything else that's even lower, for that matter. Why get any stronger biners? Maybe I just don't get the attitude of "it's overkill". That's like saying that since cams are rated near 10Kn, who cares if any biners rate over that? I don't follow that logic.

I follow the logic of "my old biners are fine, and that bump in strength isn't enough to warrant more". I guess I was expecting more of "cool, look at the limits they are pushing aluminum biners too!" Especially when they weight the exact same or less as other wiregates.

Don't worry though, I'll never post another "better gear" thread again! You have won.

If there were evidence that a 'stronger' biner had a better chance of surviving a nose-hooked bolt or rock-edge loading fall, then that would be pretty good info and a reason to buy needlessly strong biners.

Anyone have a clue how this would play out? Doubt there's any testing on these situations as they could be a bit hard to replicate.