Dear Douche, (Otto's Route, Independence Monument, Chopped)

Andrew Bisharat wrote:1) this must be a troll, and it's a funny one. 2) the route was put up in 1906 not 1912 3) this is one of the only desert routes that Layton Kor did twice ... Because it was good 4) people were climbing 5.9+ in the Dolomites by 1906 on far more committing dangerous routes with alpine weather... But Otto was a miner not a European guide in the alps 5) Ottos route au nautural could've been a great 5.10 if it hadn't been chipped. Which just goes to show that the "stealing from the future" argument against chipping is fuking dumb and should be put to rest 6) Otto did more for climbing and environmental conservation than any of you That's all.. Troll on

Sorry, I was wrong. The first ascent date was actually July 4, 1911

I got confused because I was just editing an article Messner wrote about the first ascent of the south face of Marmolada--in 1906.

The reason the "stealing from the future" argument is dumb is because people thought Independence Monument was impossible to climb. The GJ Sentinel wrote that the route was so hard it might never be repeated. There were no routes of that difficulty in Colorado at the time. But it didn't hinder the development and progression of climbing. If anything it advanced it. I'm certainly not saying I approve of chipping, but I do think that saying that chipped routes somehow rob something from the future is a dumb argument and this puts that into perspective.

Doug Lintz wrote:Who the hell and how the hell would anyone "fill in" the chopped holds? This has to be fake. While not technically difficult, Otto's is an amazing route given the history of the FA. Go get it.

so are there any photos or is this a well-executed troll?

I climbed Otto's about 3 weeks ago and everything was as expected. 3 pins on the last pitch and tons of chopped steps. Filling in the chopped steps would be next to impossible. The OP is either a troll or lied about having climbed this route before. But I think the fact that the OP hasn't posted in the thread anymore goes to show that he is full of crap.

its not a troll. I have climbed the route multiple times; you don't need a lot of John Otto's holds if you have some climbing experience, but in the offwidth section on the third pitch if you don't have gear they make it doable. at least two of these were filled in. the route is not "destroyed". It has been altered.

also its obvious who the noobs and idiots are. If you have never climbed the route then you don't know what the manufactured holds look like. They are not your conventional drilled/chipped holds. Some of them used to support iron bars that could be used like a ladder.

The manufactured holds allow most people to climb the awesome tower. If tough guys with gigantic penis's need a "real 5.10" then NEWS FLASH THERE IS FIFTEEN JILLION CRACKS ON THE COLORADO NATIONAL MONUMENT. every time i hike around up there i jizz in my pants just looking at all the climbable stuff.

if you want to climb something that noobs can't, and you hate climbing history, then go find some other rocks.

peace

It is a shame what someone has done to John Ottos route. Taking the metal bar from the top, that was a historical piece. Asshole. Filling in holds with cement? Whats worse a hole or a hole filled with grey cement? Asshole.

I have climbed Ottos route numerous times and it isnt for the super hard climber , so why make it more difficult? I agree with the OP, there are numerous other beautiful lines of the tower. Put your cams in a new place and stop degrading historically awesome routes.

Thank you Grog for bringing this matter into light, I hope the culprit voices there opinion.

Again: is there any outside confirmation that the route was actually altered? Still seems like a troll to me. How 'bout posting some pics, grog? (or anyone else...)

Abram Herman wrote:Again: is there any outside confirmation that the route was actually altered? Still seems like a troll to me. How 'bout posting some pics, grog? (or anyone else...)

Have you climbed Ship rock, Rob?

Rob T wrote: ...but with their line of ascent, you might as well add the hiking trail on Angel's Landing

Im loving this thread :)

This...

Steve Levin wrote: ...I was quite impressed with their line of ascent. I thought it one of the best adventure routes I've ever done.

Brian C. wrote:This... ...totally the same thing as this... Haha. Seriously though, I couldn't agree more. Back to Otto's, would altering a route that that fall under protection of any historical or antiquities laws?

Brian C. wrote:This... ...totally the same thing as this... Haha. Seriously though, I couldn't agree more. Back to Otto's, would altering a route that that fall under protection of any historical or antiquities laws?

Unfortunately, the Angel's Landing one was not taken by me but is a great shot!

If it's not a troll by Grog M, then it should be reported to the Park Service.

Not only would "physical alteration" of the route be a violation of park rules, but the route established by the parks first superintendent - John Otto - could be considered a cultural resource and hefty legal action could follow.

Maybe one of the guides authorized to operate in the park should chime in ...or at least be asked when they last lead a party on status of the route.

Climbed it a dozen times inc solo - it is a historical gem that I was hoping to share with my boys as they come up in climbing.

Even if it's been vandalized I still will, but my emotional and physical connection to a rich and colorful history and may just have been marred forever by a thoughtless act of indulgence and self importance that seems to define our age more and more...

NPS is aware and already monitoring this thread.

Max Supertramp wrote:NPS is aware and already monitoring this thread.

I've heard Otto was a little eccentric. Chopping steps was only the beginning he wanted to put a restaurant on top. All in an effort to draw tourism to the area. I'm bummed. It has been deteriorating rapidly,but i think a group of locals should make such decisions. Thats why i have trouble with Cerro. Royal was going to chop Leaning tower , but instead climbed the route and left it because it was fun,accessible, and prolific. If he would've mortals like me wouldn't have such a great learning wall. What a can of worms. What kind of person would attempt to reconstruct a soft sandstone monolith, perhaps one as mentally challenged as Otto. Thanks