Fair-Weather Friend
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I was referring to Ryan's post when I said "first sentence second paragraph". |
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I for one appreciate the entertainment value of this thread. This site was starting to get pretty boring lately... |
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TomCaldwell wrote:...We are only asking for bolts placed at stances...With respect, Tom, that is not what I am hearing here. I am reading that rap bolting, regardless of the quality of the resulting route, is "bad." To address Ryan's post, you said "if people are allowed to just rap bolt everything then western NC will soon be full of mediocre, grid bolted sport crags." I see this statement as intentionally inflammatory. More to the point, what is wrong with "sport crags?" Assuming that no laws are being broken, what gives you (or any user group) the right to dictate how a public resource is used? Until you get a land manger to create a policy outlawing bolts, your personal preference for ground-up FAs and "traditional ethics" is just that, your preference. Any attempt on your part to force other s to adhere to your beliefs is no different from a religious group trying to coerce non-belivers to follow their doctrine. You talk about "silence and cleanliness" in NC. While I also love this aspect of backcountry NC climbing, I don't see that rap-bolting is going to significantly change the level of noise or pollution at any given crag. To me, these types of arguments are just a smoke-screen meant to divert one away from the true issue; a small group wants to both control access to and the usage of a public resource and, in the process, differentiate themselves from the ignorant masses that don't share their "ethics." While Ryan and I might not agree on this issue, I am glad that he bumped this. It is a relevant issue, especially in light of the growing popularity of climbing and the large number of new climber venturing outdoors. We, the community of experienced climbers, need to realize that not everyone thinks the way that we do. We need to learn to live with the increase in traffic at our favorite crags and learn to live with users that may not share our "ethics." |
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TomCaldwell wrote: I have personal experience with his last paragraph having climbed a route at Laurel where the crux pitch was rap-bolted. The pitch was terrible, because none of the bolts were at stances. You would have get out of the stemming water groove to traverse a few feet to the right every time to clip the bolts then try to get back into the stem. This was mainly because the top anchor was far to the side than the climbing line. Every person I talked to that had done the route agreed with how poorly it was bolted because it was rap-bolted. I can think of another route at the Bald that was rap-bolted and all of the clips were too tall for the stances.What you are describing actually just sounds like bad bolting that has nothing to do with the style of FA. Well bolted sport routes should always have the bolts placed at 'clipping stances'. Who wants to stop to clip a bolt in the middle of a crux sequence? My experience is actually the opposite of yours. That is, I have climbed a lot of ground up routes that wandered all over creation because that is where the stances were. The climbing on those routes would have been way better if the bolts had been placed on the line of the best climbing. Truth be told, either bolting style is fine with me as long as it is done well...and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with rap bolting versus GU. TomCaldwell wrote: J. Albers, you say that stance bolting is a very common theme at those cliffs you mentioned. So why are we having this discussion. We are only asking for bolts placed at stances. The fear with changing any tradition is always the fear of the "slippery slope".We are having this discussion because folks like you demand that everyone adhere to your definition of what is okay. While I understand the whole slippery slope issue, that doesn't have to be how it is. For example, Shuteye Ridge in California was a bastion of traditionalism back in the day (its where Royal taught some of his Rock Craft classes). More recently, however, a fairly large number of sport development went on (and unfortunately some questionable behavior by both types of FA'ists). There were some growing pains between the old and new schoolers, but a reasonable understanding grew out of that conversation and now the ground up and top down communities exist in relative harmony. In fact, there is currently a lot of cross over between the individuals doing the 'other' style of FA. The take home for me is that both styles are okay, folks just need to communicate constructively and be reasonable and open to other styles of climbing (within boundaries of course). TomCaldwell wrote: Not waiting in line for a climb, silence, natural beauty, close-knit community are all reasons why I love NC. I cringe when I think of how sport climbing has become at the Red. It was hard for me to believe your first post when I started seeing people post up that in other threads call their fellow members f'ing idiots.I never called you an idiot and we probably have a lot more in common with regards to values than you think. I too cringe at the 'scene' at many major sport venues. I can't stand fixed draws all over everything, boomboxes, trash, and loud mouthed bro-brah fests. That said, I also realize that the style of the FA doesn't define the feel and scene of the crag. My favorite crags are quiet, full of natural beauty, and have an ethic of minimizing human impact. Fortunately you can have these things at crags that are put up top down or ground up, its just up to the community to have constructive discussions that mentor folks in the direction that accomplishes that. My guess is that this is what you are trying to accomplish as well, and I am just suggesting to you that demanding ground up routes is not the best way to achieve your goal. |
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NC Rock Climber wrote:Assuming that no laws are being broken, what gives you (or any user group) the right to dictate how a public resource is used?Well sir, this hammer and this wrench....CHOP. CHOP. CHOP. Seriously, though.... If Nathan weighs in in favor of ground up, Sean weighs in, Tom agrees, Whipper makes his very good point, the prevalent history suggests ground up, and every legit FA'er (Andrew, Shannon, Jody, Jeep...) I have seen at work in NC does their thing ground up, who are any of these naysayers to make any sort of claim in support of rap bolting 5.7 slab? How can any sort of serious argument in support of rap bolting stand? Seems childish, weak, short-sighted, lazy, and generally just an all-around bad idea if you have ANY familiarity with the tradition of the area and the style with which these sorts of things SHOULD be done. Check it.... AM FAing this route from high on LK left. Way to stir the pot Ryan. |
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J. Albers, the "f'ing idiot" comment wasn't referring to you, but another users post. I was merely explaining to Ryan that I was waiting for this thread to devolve. |
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Tradition, this is the way "we" have always done it, anyone who disagrees is "childish, weak, short-sighted, lazy." If you don't do as we say, then we will vandalize your route. Yup, that is a cogent argument for why everyone should adhere to your "ethics". |
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Just make sure all chopping is done ground up. |
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NC Rock Climber wrote:I have yet to hear a single reason that rap-bolters do not have the right to set routes in that style or why a certain user group gets the special right to control how public lands are used.Rap drillers have the right to set routes in their style and the OGs of the area have the right to talk shit. |
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NC Rock Climber wrote: With respect, Tom, that is not what I am hearing here. I am reading that rap bolting, regardless of the quality of the resulting route, is "bad." To address Ryan's post, you said "if people are allowed to just rap bolt everything then western NC will soon be full of mediocre, grid bolted sport crags." I see this statement as intentionally inflammatory. More to the point, what is wrong with "sport crags?" Assuming that no laws are being broken, what gives you (or any user group) the right to dictate how a public resource is used? Until you get a land manger to create a policy outlawing bolts, your personal preference for ground-up FAs and "traditional ethics" is just that, your preference. Any attempt on your part to force other s to adhere to your beliefs is no different from a religious group trying to coerce non-belivers to follow their doctrine. You talk about "silence and cleanliness" in NC. While I also love this aspect of backcountry NC climbing, I don't see that rap-bolting is going to significantly change the level of noise or pollution at any given crag. To me, these types of arguments are just a smoke-screen meant to divert one away from the true issue; a small group wants to both control access to and the usage of a public resource and, in the process, differentiate themselves from the ignorant masses that don't share their "ethics." While Ryan and I might not agree on this issue, I am glad that he bumped this. It is a relevant issue, especially in light of the growing popularity of climbing and the large number of new climber venturing outdoors. We, the community of experienced climbers, need to realize that not everyone thinks the way that we do. We need to learn to live with the increase in traffic at our favorite crags and learn to live with users that may not share our "ethics."It's not that I have a problem with sport climbing. I love sport climbing. I have FAed many more sport routes than I have trad routes. Aside from a once in a lifetime trip to Norway last summer, all I have done in the past two years is boulder and sport climb. My problem is this: once an area gets the "green light" to be rap bolted, then some gang usually comes along and bolts all the onvious lines very quickly. Then a second group of climbers, upset that they missed out on all the fun, comes in and grid bolts every thing else, just so that they still feel good about being "real climbers" who do first ascents. So not only so you have a wall or crag that is probably over developed, but any chance for ground up climbing is gone and any routes that were already done in that style are ruined. There is no opportunity for the visionary climber out there to put up what could have been an amazing route, because the ego climbers have put up a bunch of mediocre routes. I'm sorry, I know I'm not explaining myself that well, but of you've climbed at enough areas, you know there are more than a few that just feel contrived. A waste of time and effort, if you will. Bolted for ego, not for enjoyment. And in a place like NC, where there is a lot of featured rock between 5.6 and 5.10, we could easily end up with a bunch of soulless, generic, half hearted grid bolted crags. OR, we could preserve what's already been done and try to honor it by sticking to the same or similar styles. That way we end up with historic routes, proud lines, days that we dream about, and experiences that we never forget. Look at Moore's Wall. The climbing is good, much of it great. But what really makes it stand out is that it HAS NO BOLTS! Why, because we stick to the ground up style and anyone who doesn't gets the boot. If we allowed people to come in and rap bolt stuff, the entire crag could be grid bolted, creating yet another sport crag with a shit load of generic 5.9s and 5.10s. You tell me that type of crag 2 hours from Raleigh would still be nice and peaceful. |
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Cereal Wall Center
If I am looking at everything correctly (TK guide and climbing FWF and surrounding routes), the biggest issue with the bolts in regards to NC climbing ethics is that they were placed right over the first pitch of Lucky Charms. Sure, everything else in the vicinity was done ground up with sparser bolting but drilling right over an existing documented line should not happen. That said, I never climbed 'Lucky Charms' until it was retro bolted and I gladly clipped every bolt along the way. Hmmm. A second pitch moving far right over the head wall would be great. I do not believe it has been completed (topo pic has surrounding routes). The thread comments here are interesting, thanks for stirring the pot! |
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I started to write a longer post, but in the end it is a waste of time. Discussions about "climbing ethics" are like discussions about religion. No minds will be changed no matter how much any of us type. |
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Even if the route has the same nature as it's surroundings, it is still not okay. Rap-bolting artificial runouts or bold climbing just to fit in is even more lame. This reminds me of the Johns Rock incident a few years ago. Someone bolted right over an existing line only because their ego made them not want to ask anyone or share their info prior to adding the route. NC isn't climbed out, but it really helps to ask around before putting drill to rock. |
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NC is a tough place to put up new routes even if you go ground up unless you talk to all the locals and even then it can be a bit vague. I just assume that its all been done. Everything is hush hush so you never really know what has been climbed. I've seen lots of rock all over the place, but the thought of ever placing a bolt here is scary for these reasons. I personally like that fact. Lots of areas to explore and when you get a tip on an area not well documented, it makes for an amazing experience when you go exploring. We all know RB no backwater and even more reason, IMHO, to follow local ethics, wich Nate pointed out is unfortunately a bit grey but it seems this route is still out of place. |
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Ethics and style aside, if you're going to rap bolt a 5.7 in North Carolina, you really should expect some sort of backlash. |
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This topic is interesting, so here are my thoughts. Sorry for the long post. |
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Kingk wrote:Ethics are a set of rules that are decided among the community, or sometimes dictated by a land owner/manager, usually intended to allow for enjoyment of the area while maintaining its longevity.Since you mention it: those are not ethics. They are norms. "Ethics" refers to the framework you use to determine your moral values. The only reason normative ethics are relevant to this debate is because there is often a clash between consequentionalists, who assert that the ends justify the means, and deontologists who assert that certain actions are always immoral (in NC, rap bolting, for example). But in climbing there is a universal norm: to respect the accepted local practice. To deviate is immoral, regardless of the normative ethical framework you use to evaluate behavior. Carry on. |
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Jake Jones wrote:Someone has studied Kant.Yes. And I wish more folks had done the same! |
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Peter, I will admit that I am likely not as studied in philosophy as you seem to be, but I will say that you seem to have ignored the meaning behind the ideas I presented and instead want to focus on semantics. I find that is usually the strategy of someone that is more interested in being right at all cost than someone who is attempting to think through the issue in a balanced manner. I apologize in advance if this is an unfair characterization of your statement. If a valuable point was intended I missed it. |
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Forgive me for being the dumb one, but who says the outcome is "favorable?" |