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Fair-Weather Friend

Original Post
Edward Medina · · Ridgway, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,061
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

Did this line go in ground up?
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

Just thought I'd bump this to the top. I thought that having this discussion in the forums would bring in more opinions and I think that is a good thing.

I don't intend to create a pissing contest here, just a civil discussion about history and style. As you can see from the comments above and the ones on the route page, the style in which this route went up is not common in this area.

Brad Caldwell · · Deep in the Jocassee Gorges · Joined May 2010 · Points: 1,400

I dont see a reason to dig this horse up and kick it again.?! IMO, the "FAers" have been called out enough for their gumbiness and the conversation has completed.

If you want a conversation on style, then here it is in a nutshell...find out about the areas you plan on putting new routes up at before you put in a new route. It only takes 5 minutes to search the web or talk to any nearby climber to get a feel for whats acceptable or unacceptable at whatever crag you're at.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
Brad Caldwell wrote:...have been called out enough for their gumbiness.
This really rubs me the wrong way. Correct me if I am wrong, Brad, but their is no law against placing bolts at the Bald. It is public land, and the FAers have every right to climb and set routes in the manner that they see fit. Despite your assertion to the contrary, the NC climbing community is far from unanimous in its opinion of what constitutes good climbing "ethics." I fully support a respectful discussion regarding the excessive use of bolts or retro-bolting (BTW, I am against both). However, I think that it is the height of arrogance for an individual or group to dictate the way another person climbs or does FAs.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Brad Caldwell wrote:I dont see a reason to dig this horse up and kick it again.?! IMO, the "FAers" have been called out enough for their gumbiness and the conversation has completed. If you want a conversation on style, then here it is in a nutshell...find out about the areas you plan on putting new routes up at before you put in a new route. It only takes 5 minutes to search the web or talk to any nearby climber to get a feel for whats acceptable or unacceptable at whatever crag you're at.
The ethics police/Tradiban love to say this over and over. I could get 20 different answers to the same question about crag ethics at any crag on any given day. I could get 100 different answers by searching on the internet.
Whipper · · Douglasville, GA · Joined May 2012 · Points: 0

Routes in NC and at Rumbling Bald should go up ground up, bolts or not. That's the way it's done. Sorry if you don't like it. That's what separates NC from everywhere else. And for sure a 5.7 should never have been put up in this manner, given the fact that there are 5.7 pitches all over NC, Cashiers especially, that don't have any gear for the entire pitch. Are the FA guys local or did they come from somewhere else and decide to put up a new route as a public service?

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Whipper wrote:Routes in NC and at Rumbling Bald should go up ground up, bolts or not. That's the way it's done. Sorry if you don't like it. That's what separates NC from everywhere else. And for sure a 5.7 should never have been put up in this manner, given the fact that there are 5.7 pitches all over NC, Cashiers especially, that don't have any gear for the entire pitch. Are the FA guys local or did they come from somewhere else and decide to put up a new route as a public service?
Nope. As NC Rock Climber pointed out, its public land, so you don't get to decide 'the way it is done'. The way it is done is the way the FA did it. Moreover, many would argue that putting up routes with no protection for an entire pitch constitutes dickish, selfish use of land that everyone of us owns. Public land means that everyone has a right to use it. And demanding that all routes be ground up and runout does not accomplish this goal. To the contrary, allowing routes of varying styles is a much better way to accomplish this goal. I know this all probably really offends your misplaced sense of NC exceptionalism, but I assure you, your FA style doesn't make you a special person.
ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246
J. Albers wrote: The way it is done is the way the FA did it.
+1 Exactly, were not talking a place like Eldo where there are numerous organizations dedicated to preserving the minimal bolt status of the park. Instead you are arguing over a "style" in which he bolted a route that would have been bolted one way or another. Ground up or Rap bolt is ultimately the FA's choice, if you want to chop his bolts that's also your choice.

Anyone that has actually bolted more then one or two routes knows that sometimes ground up makes the most sense and sometimes rap bolting makes the most sense. Whether or not it agrees with your strict NC ethics, rap bolting sometimes does provide a safer, better, more aesthetically pleasing route.
NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
Whipper wrote:...That's the way it's done. Sorry if you don't like it. That's what separates NC from everywhere else...
LOL. What a load of crap. Actually, whipper, it appears that rap bolting IS being done in NC.

Nothing is stopping you from putting up FAs in the style that you see fit, but you also have no right to force others to abide by your "ethics." I know that you wish it were different and that everyone thought the same way that you do, but they don't. Deal with it.
David Tysinger · · Winston-Salem, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 0

The riddle that will never be answered is: would this line have gone in at all, if it had to go in ground up. I don't believe it would.

And in my opinion, most first ascents that are done and immediately published online, are not put up with the climber community in mind, but for the climbers own ego.

For places like RB, where there is mostly slab... the ethic of ground up FA has always seemed to be a deterrent for any Joe (or Jon in this case) to start drilling bolts in rock.

I simply find it disrespectful.

David Tysinger

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

More drama in nc. I'll climb this route over my break and see what it's like. Might even take it up to the top through the headwall ... Because that's where the fun climbing is in cereal wall. Can't believe someone would rap the headwall and then just bolt an easy approach slab to it. For reference most of the routes in that area have four bolts max to access the headwall with most having far fewer. Curiosity peaked. The bald has some rap bolted routes and there was a fuss back then As there is now. Things still go up ground up on a regular basis in nc and we should strive to not water down the experience of the FA. If bolts are already there your just sport climbing. Which is fine but why squeeze in an approach pitch in an area of a crag that mixed harder face climbs. Just because you want to FA doesn't mean you should these guys I'm sure where well intentioned and I look forward to seeing what their creation is even if it doesn't quite sit well with me

ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246
John Farley wrote: @ J. Albers: "misplaced sense of NC exceptionalism." IMHO violates guideline #1.
I would have thought a bunch of ground up hardmen would be a little more thick skinned.
Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623

I avoid that entire end of the wall because it is mostly 4th class. There is a reason why that side of Cereal has been overlooked for so many years. I can't think of any climbs put up in NC that were top down at that grade. I believe NC FA's should always been done ground up when possible. This is public land, so we all own it. Just because it is the way the FA did it doesn't me that is the standard practice or that we have to accept it. I find it humorous that people search for FA's as an ego boost, then put the route up in the worst style. Brad is correct, man-up and do it the way it has been for the last 60+ years. I don't want NC turning into Smith where you can leave your garbage every where or some of these SW cliffs where you can bolt Kinder-grid-style. Just like in the Smith Rock debate, if your not local, your opinion doesn't matter here.

Whipper · · Douglasville, GA · Joined May 2012 · Points: 0

Okay NC Rock Climber, do you advocate a rap drilled sport route at Whitesides? There could be one every 15'. There could be a hundred 10 pitch sport routes on Whitesides. (there was one and it got chopped - twice) How about Laurel Knob? There could be plenty there too. How about Big Green? Maybe Cashiers is an island of ground up style while the rest of NC adopts rap bolting.

Whipper · · Douglasville, GA · Joined May 2012 · Points: 0

J. Albers wrote:

"many would argue that putting up routes with no protection for an entire pitch constitutes dickish, selfish use of land that everyone of us owns."

This is laughable. Haven't climbed much in western NC have you?

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Whipper wrote:J. Albers wrote: "many would argue that putting up routes with no protection for an entire pitch constitutes dickish, selfish use of land that everyone of us owns." This is laughable. Haven't climbed much in western NC have you?
What, do you somehow think that NC has the runout climbing market cornered? Riiiight. No runouts in the Meadows, or the Southern Sierra, or the SPlatte. NC isn't special any more than any other area. The common thread is that it is public land, and as such, a wide variety of styles for a wide variety of people is a reasonable way to manage the resource.

This means that folks that want to put up full pitches with single points of protection have a similar right to those that want more protection. Obviously people have to be reasonable with how they apply this principle. For example, I'd be pissed if someone started sport bolting in Tuolumne, but I also totally respect the newer routes that have been put up in recent years that have much better protection than old school classics with significant R-rated sections. In fact I really enjoy both types of climbing depending on the day. The key is to be a reasonable person. And making statements to the effect that every route must be ground up and runout because 'that's how its always been done' do not fall into the 'reasonable' category.

Now, its entirely possible that the route in question is not reasonable. But this is surely hard to judge from many of the responses because people like you sound like zealots. Perhaps if you make less hyperbolic statements, then your point of view would sound more reasonable and hence easier for folks to relate to.

And to those folks that proclaim, 'if you are not from NC, then you get no voice'...

Most of the discussion here is relevant to virtually any climbing area. There isn't anything inherently special about how public land should be managed in NC versus the Southern Sierra. When folks from other areas express opinions, they are making comments that apply broadly to the climbing community as a whole. Don't get your panties in such a wad if a poster's by-line doesn't have an 'NC' underneath it.
Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623

Just because it is ground up doesn't mean it is runout J. Albers. Your entire post tries to make the two synonymous, they are not. There is something to be said about placing bolts on lead at stances, because when you go to clip those beloved shiny things your at a stance. The only reason this type of discussion keeps popping up about NC is because the majority of western NC is made of granite-monoliths with little natural pro. So we aren't trying to be NC elitists, its just unique to the area for the aforementioned reason. Nobody is getting their panties in a wad, its just that locals don't really care what three of the most squeeky-wheels of MP have to say regarding NC. We'll take care of it regardless of the outcome of this "pissing contest". Ryan's reasoning for posting this in the forums is laughable. Do you even believe your first sentence in your second paragraph?

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
Whipper wrote:Okay NC Rock Climber, do you advocate a rap drilled sport route at Whitesides? There could be one every 15'. There could be a hundred 10 pitch sport routes on Whitesides. (there was one and it got chopped - twice) How about Laurel Knob? There could be plenty there too. How about Big Green? Maybe Cashiers is an island of ground up style while the rest of NC adopts rap bolting.
Inherent in a discussion on "correct climbing ethics" is the ascertain that one group of folks can dictate how another group or individual utilizes a public resource. Simply put, you have NO RIGHT to say how another person climbs or does FA. The rock is a public resource. As long as a person is not destroying the rock, hindering others access or breaking any laws, they have as much right to climb in their style as you do to climb in yours.

When I hear people talking about how important it is for another person to adhere to a certain climbing style, I am reminded of religious zealots who believe that they have found the "truth" and demand that everyone believe the same way as them. These types of discussions have little to do with climbing, and a lot to do with trying to control access to public lands and others behavior. To put it another way, a lot of the ground-up zealots seem a lot more concerned with denigrating those who don't share their beliefs than actually doing FAs in the style they promote.

You bring up the strawman of "a hundred 10 pitch sport routes on Whitesides… one every 10'." First off, that is not going to happen. However, please explain what the negative consequence would be of a sport route or two at one of the classic NC crags. Who is it going to hurt? What is the negative consequence going to be? Be realistic: the real-world consequences from such a route would be nil.

To answer your question, I have no problem with rap bolting at Whitesides, Laurel Knob, Big Green or Cashiers. (And, yes, I have climbed at Whitesides a bunch and Laurel Knob twice.) As long as it is a quality route and not a retro-bolt, I am 100% fine with the FA using whatever style works for them. What constitutes a "quality route" and how you manage to avert grid-bolting is a different discussion; it is a grey area that requires compromise and respectful conversation. Religious-like adherence to a set of ethics that are not shared by all stakeholders does nothing to further this conversation.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

So, to recap:

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
TomCaldwell wrote: Do you even believe your first sentence in your second paragraph?
Actually, yes. I have climbed and enjoyed routes that had pitches with nearly no pro on a given pitch. That said, I think it would be rather unfortunate if everything was bolted in that fashion. And yes, I also realize that ground up routes are not necessarily synonymous with run out routes.

TomCaldwell wrote:The only reason this type of discussion keeps popping up about NC is because the majority of western NC is made of granite-monoliths with little natural pro. So we aren't trying to be NC elitists, its just unique to the area for the aforementioned reason. Ryan's reasoning for posting this in the forums is laughable. Do you even believe your first sentence in your second paragraph?
No, 'granite monoliths with little natural gear' are in no way unique to NC. Go climb on Glacier Point Apron or the Dome in the SPlatte or Whitney Portal. Stance bolting is a very common theme. Which is exactly why it is funny to hear folks tell others that 'you wouldn't understand, NC is different.' No, its not. I think you should give some thought to the last post that NC Rock Climber just wrote. Its well-thought out and presents a very reasonable perspective. If more folks adopted a similar perspecitve (on both sides of the debate) then this whole forum thread would be largely unnecessary. But obviously this forum thread isn't unnecessary, which is exactly why Ryan bumped it.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

One if the reasons NC is special to all of us is that some good things about climbing "back in the day" have been preserved here. It's not about being hard, it's just about an apropriate use of land. Tom, you definitely understand that.

I don't think a discussion about a route like this is laughable; not at all. I am not alone in saying that if people are allowed to just rap bolt everything then western NC will soon be full of mediocre, grid bolted sport crags. That ruins another part of NC that we love so much: silence and cleanliness.

If you don't think that raising awareness about this kind of ascent will help preserve the climbing we have in NC then I won't argue with you - we'll juat have to agree to disagree.

And yea I do believe what I said. It is possile for us to have a discussion. We've gone pages and pages talking about Moore's Wall without being disrespectful to each other. IIRC, one of those threads was started in the same way (also by me).

It's not my fault that most people either don't understand the true nature of the issue and/or can't communicate without implanting ego into every other sentance.

And to be honest, this aint that bad. Healthy, even. And I stand by what I said: more people will see this and join in if it's in the forums and not at the bottom if some route page that no one is going to even look at.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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