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LeeAB Brinckerhoff
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Nov 19, 2013
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Austin, TX
· Joined Aug 2008
· Points: 10,288
rock_fencer wrote:passive vs active pro....the fixed gear debate of the climbing world...sure its what they used to have and fun to take out for a spin but for long rides i like my derailleur Yes, and if you go with the first one you're and insufferable hipster
well many of them anyway, speaking of cycling.
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Steve Levin
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Nov 20, 2013
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 952
taylor januskiewiecz wrote: I love the freedom I get from the small amount of gear I use. I carry 24 to 25 nuts, including hexes. I have cams, Ive just never used them. Theyre still in the box with the hangtags. Someone gave them to me back in the 1980s. Theyre awesome, brilliant devices, fantastic technology. Ive got nothing against them I just never needed them. Thats what I want people to take away from my climbing that I tried to do more with less, all the time. " Henry Barber" ...and if memory serves me, Henry quite often didn't even need the nuts & hexes.
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Taylor J
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Nov 20, 2013
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Taos NM
· Joined Nov 2010
· Points: 390
Steve Levin wrote: ...and if memory serves me, Henry quite often didn't even need the nuts & hexes. This is true... I was just stating a fact, if one person can do it anyone else can. It just depends how much emphasis you want to put on having cams I suppose. Are you the Steve Levin mentioned in stone crusades?
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Kevin DeWeese
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Nov 20, 2013
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@failfalling - Oakland, Ca
· Joined Jan 2007
· Points: 981
This thread is causing too many Trad free climbing mentalities to show up in a bigwall/ aid forum.
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Shannon M
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Nov 20, 2013
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North Hollywood, CA
· Joined Jun 2013
· Points: 30
You'll love placing your tricams in NC. There are lots of little horizontal placements, pockets and holes to put them in. I think learning to place passive gear well first should be a requisite to placing active camming devices. Especially if you learn the tricam, which is a non-mechanical "camming" device, it will help you really understand the intricacies of placing mechanical camming devices. "There are more ways to do it wrong than there are ways to do it right!"
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Robbie Mackley
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Nov 20, 2013
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Tucson, AZ
· Joined May 2010
· Points: 85
I think it is worth mentioning that, although the first real cams appeared around '78, not all routes put up before this were protected only by nuts and hexes. Royal Robins article, "The Whole Natural Art of Protection," appeared in the '72 Chouinard catalog. As I understand things this was the beginning of the clean climbing movement. It's highly likely that anything put up before 1972 used at least some iron. Maybe I'm wrong. -Mackley Edit: It's also likely that many routes put up between '72 & '78 (and probably many after that) were done on all nuts and hexes.
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John Ryan
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Nov 21, 2013
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Poncha Springs, CO
· Joined Aug 2012
· Points: 170
Hexes kick ass. I learned to lead on a set and still drag a token big hex up any trad route especially multipitch. Yes cams are quick to place and work where hexes don't work well such as true parallel sided cracks.
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Colin Brochard
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Nov 21, 2013
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San Diego, CA
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 176
Building a multipitch anchor can be a pain on passive pro, (protecting downward and upward pull)
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Tyler Newcomb
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Nov 28, 2013
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New York, New York | Boston
· Joined Dec 2012
· Points: 81
Ryan Nevius wrote: Prices are approximate (via backcountry.com): 2 sets of hexes: $178 One set of stoppers: $70 One set of tricams: $119 Total cost: $367 One set of stoppers ($70) + C4s from .5 to #3 ($292) = $362 You're likely to find a better deal on gear here on MP. I am new to trad but would rather have more passive pro than less active pro. Just my opinion. I am pretty confortable in my slotting skills
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caribouman1052
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Jul 4, 2014
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Nov 2012
· Points: 5
There are places, the parallel sided cracks of the desert for instance, where nothing else works nearly as well as a cam. Even though I don't really like moving parts, there is one situation where a cam is awesome: a downward opening crack - a cam works like a spring-loaded Tricam in those situations, the springs keeping the Tricam locked in the crack. One fairly serious drawback you may run in to without cams is that it will take you a bit longer to build every anchor. And that extra five minutes per anchor... that's between 45 minutes and an hour for the route. I like the comment about the bicycle derailleurs - sure you can pedal up the hills with a single gear, but the overall ride is more fun with multiple gears. I'd say that concept translates pretty well climbing -sure you can climb big routes with passive gear, but it'll probably be more fun with cams.
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Joan Lee
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Jul 4, 2014
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Jun 2014
· Points: 140
Double rack of BD cams and a set of offset nuts is "the works". If you got extra cash grab some aliens and brassies. Good stuff! Btw, don't waste your money on hexes and tricams. Instead invest into hooded wires and a nice 9.8 70m. A good trad harness will make your leads more fun too.
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Max Forbes
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Jul 11, 2014
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Colorado
· Joined Jan 2014
· Points: 108
Ryan Nevius wrote: Prices are approximate (via backcountry.com): 2 sets of hexes: $178 One set of stoppers: $70 One set of tricams: $119 Total cost: $367 One set of stoppers ($70) + C4s from .5 to #3 ($292) = $362 You're likely to find a better deal on gear here on MP. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is so much more ideal than double hex's. I can't even imagine carrying all that weight.
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Parker Kempf
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Jul 11, 2014
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Bellingham, WA
· Joined Jul 2011
· Points: 210
John Wilder wrote: finally, a 5.11 sport climber doesn't automatically mean 5.9 trad is super easy. fwiw. especially in NC...ive seen 5.11 sport climbers fall off of 5.6 NC trad routes....on top rope.... as for the rack? go for it dude, youll figure out what you like eventually. im willing to bet you will eventually supplement with cams, but hexes and tricams are great alpine stuff cause they are light and not as difficult to leave behind in a bail situation...
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J. Broussard
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Jul 11, 2014
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CordryCorner
· Joined Feb 2011
· Points: 50
Ask fellow NC climbers what their favorite cams are (most used). Get 3 or four of those, to get your cam rack started, and just one full set of stoppers. You'll learn a lot, have a few cams for sticky situations, and get a great feeling for what your future gear purchase will be like. OR, better yet: Buy a nice rope, so your trad climbing buddies feel good about always using their rack.
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eli poss
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Aug 11, 2014
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Durango, CO
· Joined May 2014
· Points: 525
I'd say for a passive rack (which I would recommend because it's harder for a good passive placement to fail than a slcd and they are more confidence inspiring) get a set of nuts, a double set of tricams and if you have any money left some hexes in the sizes that you use a lot. I have yet to find a crack that takes slcd's and not tricams. I love my tricams, especially .5-2 because of their versatility. Even when I have the choice of my friends' racks, I only ever use cams for anchors or if I run out of tricams. The only time I choose a cam first is in a horizontal where I can't slot a hex. And if you're worried about zippering throw in an extra stopper going up. Climbing with passive pro builds strength because you can't just plug n go
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Mark Thesing
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Aug 11, 2014
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Central Indiana
· Joined Apr 2010
· Points: 60
rgold wrote:Ditto the protection grades. A route graded PG could be R or X if you don't have the small cams the guidebook author carries. It can go the other way also. Back in the early 80s I put up a 5.7 route at Seneca. At the time, all I carried is passive pro. This route ate up mid size stoppers and hexes. Most placements were shallow but very solid. 30 years later when I got back into climbing and saw this climb on MP as having an R rating I couldn't believe it. Knowing what I had used on this climb, I guess I can understand if someone was relying on .5 through #3 C4s to protect this climb that they may find it a little sketchy. If you go old school and leave the cams on the ground and just rack up mid size stoppers and hexes, you will find the route goes with a G rating.
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Ryan Watts
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Aug 11, 2014
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Bishop, CA
· Joined Apr 2013
· Points: 25
eli poss wrote:I'd say for a passive rack (which I would recommend because it's harder for a good passive placement to fail than a slcd and they are more confidence inspiring) get a set of nuts, a double set of tricams and if you have any money left some hexes in the sizes that you use a lot. I have yet to find a crack that takes slcd's and not tricams. I love my tricams, especially .5-2 because of their versatility. Even when I have the choice of my friends' racks, I only ever use cams for anchors or if I run out of tricams. The only time I choose a cam first is in a horizontal where I can't slot a hex. And if you're worried about zippering throw in an extra stopper going up. Climbing with passive pro builds strength because you can't just plug n go Not sure if troll or just 5.7 trad climber...
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LEG
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Aug 11, 2014
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined May 2014
· Points: 0
Ive never seen the need for the debate. I get to climb how I want (insert whiny baby sound here) and I don't mind others doing the same. That said, a question for those of us that learned without cams: would you have used them if they were available when you were learning?
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