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BD atc guide vs Reverso

Original Post
climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

Hello, I want to by a new belay device that can be used in the guide autoblock configuration. I have used the Reverso and found it took a lot of effort with my rope. It wasn't exactly smooth or effortless due to the friction. I was wondering if the BD atc guide is smoother and easier in this configuration then the reverso. Or is this just something to be excpected in this configuration. Overall What do you choose when it comes to using this type of belay device. Thanks!

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

mammut alpine smart ...

short of a grigri/gigi ... its the smoothest pulling autoblock device

and its assisted locking to boot

belaying two lazy bums up some easy walk up with my smart using an old fuzzy 10.2mm rope .... smooth as buttah

emil 5.6

;)

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Keep in mind that when using a fat rope (10.5) it does take more work to pull the rope when in guide mode. A skinnier rope pulls much easier. Even if you drop to 10.2 or 10.0, you'll see a difference.

Although I've never used this device, the Kong GiGi is supposed to excel when bringing up one or two seconds in guide mode due to the ease of pulling the rope:

outdoorgearlab.com/Belay-De…

Personally, I just use my Cinch to bring up the second and that works well.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

I've used a lot of these and none of them work well with ropes over 10mm or even old and fuzzy 9.8. The BD seems worst, but it's been years since I've used one.

Out of curiosity, do you plan on bringing up multiple partners? Belying in auto block mode is hardly ever the best option, unless you do a lot of multipitch with bolted belays.

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Black Diamond ATC Guide: Beefiest and longest-lasting.

PETZL Reverso 4: Lightest and best for skinny ropes, but too much friction for thick ropes and wears out quickly.

KONG GiGi: Least amount of friction when used with thick ropes, but a bit scary with sub 8mm ropes. Sucks for rapping, lead belaying.

These are my opinions after quite a bit of use - and I still continue to use all three depending on circumstances. If you just want one that is the best compromise, I recommend the ATC Guide. Incidentally I totally disagree with Ryan Williams and Jake Jones' opinions on the lack of utility of belaying in auto block mode, but whatever.

gf9318 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 0

I think the added training benefits of yarding on the Guide outweigh any of this "smooth" talk. Especially when you accidentally set it up near your feet or running over your leg.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Jake Jones wrote:^ I agree with this. Even on bolted belays, there's no reason why you can't just extend yourself away from the bolts a little then redirect through your anchor. Then it's just business as usual. I think unless you're belaying two followers, there's not much of a reason to use it. Top belay in autoblock mode is especially a pain (when compared to just belaying off your harness) should your climber need to be lowered.
i belay in autoblock 80% of the time whether on gear or bolts

- rockfall ... the canadian rockies have serious rockfall issues even on popular routes

- busy routes ... theres tons of busy routes here in squamish with stacked belays, often full of newbies ... dropped gear from above is not uncommon

- faster ... i find it faster to pull in the rope with an autoblock setup ... the smart is smooth as butter even belaying 2 climbers on thick fuzzy ropes

- two seconds ... i climb with 2 seconds a decent amount of the time ... autoblock is the fastest way to climb and the safest way to belay two at once

personally i find it very odd this thing against autoblock on the intraweb forums ....

most of the highly experienced climbers and guides that ive met or read about use autoblock when its warranted

heres a few ...

Will Gadd

gravsports.com/Gear%20Folde…

If you're not using some sort of autolock device for the second on multi-pitch routes you're missing out, it's great and a lot safer. It took me a couple of years to come around to the idea of belaying the second with a placquete-style device, but once you start you'll never go back, it's just safer and lower stress (if you have a decent belay anchor--if you don't you're an idiot anyhow).


willgadd.com/auto-block-bel…

The solution for me is straightforward: use an ATC Guide or some other auto-block belay device when belaying the second off a solid anchor. In Canada and Europe this is the common method of belaying the second, but it’s still less so in the USA for some reason. This is changing, maybe due to international guiding standards, but I still see a lot of people using a non-blocking belay device for the second when it would be far more suitable to use an auto-block to do so (90+ percent of the time while ice or rock climbing, less so with alpine climbing).

Kelly Cordes

kellycordes.wordpress.com/2…

It’s hard to imagine why anyone would climb a multi-pitch route these days with a regular tuber or figure-8. Auto-blocking devices, an evolution from plaquettes or “magic plates” previously used mostly by savvy climbing guides to manage multiple clients, absolutely rule. They’re exponentially more efficient, addictively so (I haven’t used a non-auto-blocker on a multi-pitch climb in over a decade). They’re safer, too. They rappel and feed-out rope to the leader like normal, but, when configured correctly, they automatically lock-down if the second falls. Magic.


heres a good article by the folks at AMI ...

glenmorelodge.org.uk/cust_i…

Tommy Caldwell uses an ATC guide to belay up mescalito

youtube.com/watch?v=Y0YUseO…

Colin Haley

cascadeclimbers.com/article…

Both climbers should absolutely use a belay device that is auto-locking for belaying the follower. Belaying straight off the anchor in this fashion is safer, and gives you time to eat, drink, and adjust clothing at a belay.

etc ...

i can dig up tons more with a bit more time

the problem IMO is when beginners use the autoblock without learning its failure modes or how to lower off it properly ...

and when people use it when some other belay would work better ...

;)
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

it is easier to smoke a bowl, drink water, take pictures, adjust the nads and piss with an autoblock for sure

I will say my BD guide never leaves the gear room, its usually a grigri for me

climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

First off, thanks everyone for replying and helping me out. To answer a few questions i do do a lot of multi-pitch climbing and that's the main reason I want this type of device, and no i usually do not bring up 2 seconds. I use a 9.8 or 10 rope, i cant remember ;). I understand it is safer to use an auto blocking device and that's why I want one but when I use my brothers its not very smooth, and that's why I have chose to stick with my basic belay device until now. and from watching that video of Tommy Caldwell I can say my system (experience with the reverso) is not nearly as smooth as what ever hes using. Also Im not setting it up near my feat, so that isn't the problem. Ill probably end up waiting until I have the opportunity to try out somebodies autoblocker atc device and see what works for me... and Im too cheap to buy a gri gri right now

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

I use a Reverso for multi-pitch climbing and personally I like belaying the second in guide mode, especially if we're not swinging leads (so I don't have to change anything around to lead belay). I used a tube style device with a redirect for a long time before I finally switched to a Reverso and I don't think I'll be switching back any time soon.

I've used a BD guide too and can't say I've noticed any difference compared to the Reverso as far as smoothness. Then again on most multi pitch climbs I'm either using my 9.5 rope or my partner's 8.9 (!!!).

I did use someone's 10.2 once and noticed there was a lot of friction, so I'd guess the rope diameter is the culprit.

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

The reason Tommy's setup is so smooth is simply because he's using either a very new, slick rope, or a very skinny rope. Probably both.

You'll notice he's being lazy by attaching the belay device to a piece of equalized tat that is tied to the bolts. This saves a bit of time and gear (of course he also wastes that time by having to find and clip two lockers to the device - mine never leave the device), but he then has to hunch over to belay. Whenever I'm setting up an anchor I'll always make an effort, within reason, to rig the belay device as high as possible so I can more comfortably feed the ropes without having to bend over. Even better if I can find a spot to sit down while feeding.

Brian Prince · · reno · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 2,727

I use an autoblock pretty much every time I belay someone up. I've only ever had an ATC as far as tube styles go. It can definitely be hard to pull sometimes but I guess I just get over it. I'd also recommend putting the thing as high as possible so you don't have to bend over and can take in a lot of rope at once.

The only disadvantage I see to using an autoblock up top (besides lowering) is when swinging leads, the new leader has to clip in to switch it over from guide mode to lead mode. I think redirecting off your harness pretty much sucks except the no switching over when swinging leads is nice. But, autoblock usually seems like the "best option" for me.

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Actually the new leader doesn't have to clip in at all to switch over when swinging leads. The second (who is now the new leader) simply hands his belay device to the belayer who puts him on belay underneath the ATC Guide (or whatever device is being used). When the new leader is about to leave the anchor and launch up the next pitch, he simply takes the ATC Guide with him when he goes. Two partners effectively swap belay devices all the way up a route and this saves a lot of unnecessary clipping-into and unclipping-from anchors.

I frequently climb multi pitch routes with one ATC Guide and one Gri Gri in this fashion: The leader is always carrying the ATC Guide and belaying up the second with it; the second carries the Gri Gri having just used it to belay the leader. The pattern is repeated all the way up the route; only one person ever clips into any given anchor.

MRock · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 10

I have found my atc guide to auto block smoother with a rounder Biner. I've tried a vapor lock which has a pretty flat profile, whereas a rock lock hms style Biner lets the rope feed smoother. Setting up a belay using the rope and atc in guide mode can be very efficient and simple, not always the case with belay off the harness.

Derek Doucet · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 66

If belaying 2 seconds, the GiGi is by far the smoothest of the three, followed by the Reverso, and finally the ATC Guide. Using a GiGi saves significant energy over the course of a long route. If belaying 1 second, I prefer a GriGri 2 directly off the anchor. Pulling rope through it is far easier even than the GiGi, and it dramatically simplifies many improvised rescue/assistance techniques.

As mentioned up thread, if using a Reverso/Guide/GiGi, rope age and diameter are critical, as is using a nice round-stock carabiner.

Josh's method at belay transitions is ideal, and is my preferred technique, with the seconds being belayed on a GiGi and the leader being belayed with another device (GriGri, Reverso, etc.). This is because I agree that the GiGi is a very poor lead belay device (and not even recommended by Kong for that application if I recall correctly). I disagree with Josh about its utility as a rap device though. It does require an extra locker, and produces relatively low friction, but I find it to be smooth on rap.

climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

Would a older style BD atc guide be better for thicker ropes?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Autoblock belays are great in theory. Like any climbing technique, autoblock belaying is fine when done properly, and isn't used in inappropriate situations. It is clearly best for bolted belays set at eye level, which is one reason why it is more popular in Europe. And if the rockfall potential means the belayer may be suddenly unconscious, then the unattended locking ability is a clear advantage.

The trouble is that a large number of users aren't any good at it. If you enjoy getting a guide's belay while seconding, meaning the rope is always pulling you, fine, because most of the autoblock belayers I've climbed with pull up the rope until it comes tight, at which point the device locks and you're basically on tension. This is just an annoyance until you need to step down. It is even more of an annoyance if the rope runs diagonally and/or over a ceiling, in which case the tight autoblock belay will pull you off.

These problems are completely eliminated if the autoblock belayer is attentive and knows how to manage the device (neither of which can be taken for granted) and good communication is possible (which it isn't always). However a major component of autoblock propaganda is that the belayer doesn't have to be attentive, they can be changing clothes and eating lunch. In my experience the belayers have totally bought into that idea, so you're back to either being on tension or climbing with big loops of slack while your belayer is rehydrating.

The sh#t really hits the fan when it comes to lowering, which may have to be done after the autoblock has pulled you off to the side, for example. Here autoblock belayers can be divided into three groups.

Group I: clueless. They'll either drop the follower or won't be able to release the device at all.

Group II: they have some idea how to do it in theory but have no practical experience doing it. End result is the same as the clueless group if the situation isn't textbook easy, and in even in the textbook case will take a ridiculous amount of time to accomplish the lower.

Group III: have practiced lowering in various real situations and are prepared and knowledgeable about anticipating and avoiding jamming problems when possible and dealing with them when they happen anyway. These are the only folks you can trust, there aren't that many of 'em, and it is hard to know ahead of time who is actually competent until a situation arises, at which point it is, of course, too late.

What I think is unusual is the number of people who buy and use autoblock devices and think they can just slap it on the anchor and haul in the ropes, without acquiring the skills needed to deal with the situations that might actually arise. Until that changes, I for one am wary of being subjected to this type of belay.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
climber57 wrote:Would a older style BD atc guide be better for thicker ropes?
mammut alpine smart ... i will guarantee that it will be smooth as buttah on the rope size you indicated you use

ive used most of the popular ones out there ...

all of em except for the smart, gri gri/cinch and gigi suck at 10mm+ ropes

as to "attention" ... its easy to belay while eating a sandwich or taking a drink in autoblock ... you simply pull the rope, take a bite, take a swing, pull the rope ...

when youre doing long multi and are seconding ... or hard multi for you ... the rope is going to get constantly pulled up ... in fact in areas with poor communication this is the only "safe" way to do it ... the second is not there to free on TR all the pitches, they are there to get up ASAP on long multi

in fact with an autoblock or direct munter its "easier" to feel the tension on the line than with a redirect ... think about it with a redirect you are pulling in through a top biner ... in autoblock you have a hand directly on the rope without a redirect, you can feel it direct to the second ...

on hard cruxes where the second may have issues, the autoblock is much better as long as you arent planning to lower ... and honestly lowering on multi at a crux wont get you anywhere unless you are willing to bail off the climb, not to mention you may have nowhere to lower to on steeper climbs ... the autoblock allows you to pull up every inch without any slippage and set up a 3/5:1 in a snap to help em up

for lowering ... it is absolutely essential that one be practiced on how to lower ... but one doesnt need to set it up super fast ... i can count the amount of times i needed to lower mid pitch on autoblock on one hand ... if they take 5 min to set up a lower then so be it, i would rather they spend the extra minutes setting it up correctly ... theres a decent chance that they are setting it up because of a rescue situation ...

a good climber will be practiced in using ALL the top belay methods

- off harness
- redirect
- direct munter
- direct autoblock

i think its quite telling that you generally see guides and other high volume multi climbers use the autoblock without a second thought ...

houston/cosley alpine techniques recommend direct belays generally ... munters/autoblocks ... heres a tip from em for efficiency for long multi/alpine

houston/cosley alpine techniques

the problem is that autoblock is not a beginners method .... you should be well practiced on all the other methods above before using it ... and you should be practiced in lowering with it safely a full pitch at least once or twice a year ...

and you should always ask yourself what belay method would work best ...

;)
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I don't really disagree with your points BB, but the proof is often in the pudding.

bearbreeder wrote: ... its easy to belay while eating a sandwich or taking a drink in autoblock ... you simply pull the rope, take a bite, take a swing, pull the rope ...
The fact that it is easy to do things right doesn't mean that they get done right.

bearbreeder wrote: when youre doing long multi and are seconding ... or hard multi for you ... the rope is going to get constantly pulled up ... in fact in areas with poor communication this is the only "safe" way to do it
Maybe. I'm talking about a bit more than the rope being "constantly pulled up," that would be an expected feature of minimally competent belaying no matter what technique is used. I'm talking about pulling on the second. It really is possible to do very long free climbs quickly and safely without having the second on tension half the time, with or without an autoblock belay. But as I said, there's an awful lot of autoblock belayers who can't seem to manage this.

In any case, you are only making these points for some undefined "long multi." What exactly is that? Three pitches? Ten pitches? Twenty pitches? I don't see any inclination of autoblock belayers to change techniques on shorter climbs, where whatever considerations might be in place for "long multi" are utterly irrelevant.

bearbreeder wrote: ... the second is not there to free on TR all the pitches, they are there to get up ASAP on long multi


Well, this is a matter to be decided by the party. I personally don't find the idea of doing a long free climb in such a way that I've used aid for half the pitches attractive, but others may differ. And once again, what about three-pitch climbs? Is the second "there" to free one or two pitches on top rope for those, because as I said, I see no evidence that autobelaying belayers change their practices.

bearbreeder wrote:in fact with an autoblock or direct munter its "easier" to feel the tension on the line than with a redirect ...
Personally, I almost never redirect. But the direct munter is identical to the autoblock as far as feeling tension in the climber's line is concerned. In any case, the ability to feel tension in the line more easily is of no use if the belayer doesn't do something about it, which is the issue I raised.

Of course, there is a reason related to the devices themselves for this. It is more awkward and complex to let a little slack back out through an autoblock device, especially if the second is stepping down (or back on a diagonal line) and so creating at least some rope tension. It takes two hands too, including the one that is holding the sandwich. So the combination of encouraged belayer inattention and the fact that paying out slack is more involved for the autoblock belay means that slack doesn't get payed out a lot of the time, regardless of whether or not it its easier to feel tension in the line.

bearbreeder wrote: on hard cruxes where the second may have issues, the autoblock is much better as long as you arent planning to lower...
As I said, if the rope runs over a big ceiling or diagonally at a hard crux, the ability of the inattentively-tended autoblock to pull the second off is not any kind of advantage.

bearbreeder wrote:...it is absolutely essential that one be practiced on how to lower ... but one doesnt need to set it up super fast
Yes, but I'm talking about super slow for your Group I and Group II belayers. Mal Daly gives an example of an hour for a twenty-foot lower on the Kelly Cordes thread you linked. The belayer had a two-bolt anchor at eye level too.

bearbreeder wrote: ...the problem is that autoblock is not a beginners method .... you should be well practiced on all the other methods above before using it ... and you should be practiced in lowering with it safely a full pitch at least once or twice a year ... and you should always ask yourself what belay method would work best ... ;)
Yup. But the crags are full of people who are autoblock beginners, even if perhaps experienced in other ways, and the crags are even fuller of people who haven't practiced autoblock lowering in realistic circumstances ever, much less twice a year.
Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40
climber57 wrote:Would a older style BD atc guide be better for thicker ropes?
No. I've got the first generation model to replace a Reverso.The first time I used it in autoblocking mode, I was bringing up my second on my 10.5 workhorse rope-- that was an insane workout. I now generally avoid using the Guide on top belay unless I'm using a 9.8 or thinner.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
"What I think is unusual is the number of people who buy and use autoblock devices and think they can just slap it on the anchor and haul in the ropes, without acquiring the skills needed to deal with the situations that might actually arise. Until that changes, I for one am wary of being subjected to this type of belay."

Well said....
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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