Silent Partner Top-roping (and rappel)

Hello,
My questions are about the usage of the Rock Exotica Silent Partner as a top rope self-belaying device and eventually as a rappelling unit.

Despite being designed specifically for solo lead, its manual also states that it actually can be used for toprope and rappel.

The reason why it is appealing to me are several.

• If you slowly climb back towards the ground - so to try a passage again - it should allow you to.

Other ascenders just lock in the point of the rope they reached. That can be very desiderable, but it would not allow to get back down one foot or two and move up again.
The SP should allow that while still granting safety in case of a fall (descending too fast). I'd love to know from other climbers that ever experienced with this what was their feeling. There isn't really much I could find about this on the web.

• The second reason why I am interested in top roping with the SP is to work a route several times in safety and fast. Using it while toproping could theorethically (according to the manual!) allow you to rappel down without requiring to lock to the anchor, unmount your setup, set-up the rappel gear, get down, switch again to climbing setup, climb over. That is very time consuming and somehow stressfull (every time you alter anything you have to focus and double check and then focus and check again) so if that could be done in safety that would be amazing.

Any feedback from people that actually uses (or used) it this way would be immensely appreciated and loved.

Thanks so much!

"So, you said that you had no problem rappeling directly with the SP itself. The manual states that it is difficult to control the speed and the process is "a little unnerving at first". Did you experience that? " (from the leading with an SP thread)

Heck yeah. Which is why I use the prussiks. It is worth noting that I found rope diameter makes a difference. I had purcashed a 9.4mm trango to use with the SP but after scaring the crap out of myself I put a 10.2 New England through it with much different results. Pretty much I think it came down to how it felt in my brake hand. Typically I spend part of a day prior to a climb reviewing my system. Carrying a belay device (ATC,BRD...) is always good, a real confidence booster after a nerve-racking solo climb. However, that said, I would pull up those back up knots for use on the way back down. (they're already there might as well use them.)

Metolious makes a prussik set which is what I have been using. Love this product.

Top roping is something I will attempt in the spring. Been doing lead on easy routes.

Hope that helps.

Febs wrote:The SP should allow that while still granting safety in case of a fall (descending too fast). Any feedback from people that actually uses (or used) it this way would be immensely appreciated and loved. Thanks so much!

I think the SP is one of the safer self-belay devices. The brake mechanism in the SP engages when the rope pulls through it at a high rate of speed. When top-roping with the SP, you may fall farther than you expect before the centrifugal clutch engages and arrests the fall. When falling on the lead you engage the clutch almost immediately as the rope comes taut. Be aware of this fact and tie backup knots to keep you off the deck while low on the route.

You can definitely downclimb with a SP.

Thanks to both.

JacksonLandFill, I'd be delighted to read abour your experiences with the SP in top-rope, when you will have some - although I hope to have made my own as well in the following months. We can compare then. :)
So, you use a Prussik. As far as I can remember, the manual does not mention it, and it describe how to rappel with the device on its own; but of course that really sounds like a good idea and something that can give you a LOT of more control on the abseil.
What did actually scared you when using the 9.4mm rope? Did you slip downwards and all of a sudden? And, for how many meters? Or, it was only a matter of strenght you have to apply with your brake hand?

Also, the manual suggests to pass the rope around your hips to provide more friction. Have you ever experienced with it?

Peter: have you actually used the device? How long have you ever fell before the unit engaged? Was that a sloppy terrain, or a vertical one?

Thanks again buds

Hey Febs- if you wander over to ST you'll find quite a few people who use the SP, including the folks who invented it (Blanchard and eKat). Lots of good insight to be had there.

^^^^ just picked up a microscender looking to use it next week!

Locker wrote:Using a "Silent Partner" for top roping in my opinion is a real pain! There are much easier (And certainly SAFE ENOUGH!) devices to use. Such as a Mini/Micro Traxion, or any of the many other ascending/hauling devices on the market. Buying an expensive and bulky "Silent Partner" for TR'ing seems like a waste to me.

I *do* own a Mini Traxion and I use it, but as I wrote in the first post, I would like to use something that would easily allow me to drop down a bit. The mini Traxion would not allow to do that by no mean!
Also, I am searching for something that I could also rappel with. Did you ever used the SP for top roping?

Febs wrote:What did actually scared you when using the 9.4mm rope? Did you slip downwards and all of a sudden? And, for how many meters? Or, it was only a matter of strenght you have to apply with your brake hand? Also, the manual suggests to pass the rope around your hips to provide more friction. Have you ever experienced with it?

3 meters... it was from the anchor, no free falling involved, but the drum did lock. After that I did a test for 'free fall': 15' sycamore branch, pulled out some slack and let go. Ow. But I did not hit the ground.

I did not try using my body to add friction, though I'll certainly give it ago. It's not something I do when using a BRD either. Since the pulley spins i.t passed rope rather quickly and the weighted end of the rope got rather thin, the 6mm prussik cord did not want to bite... with the 10.2 rope this is less of a problem(for me).

Yeah, using the prussik is part of my own safety routine. I have bookmarked this thread and will post an update once the 19 degree weather eases up.

Locker has a valid point. BUT Roped solo climbing is what the SP was designed for.

Febs wrote: I *do* own a Mini Traxion and I use it, but as I wrote in the first post, I would like to use something that would easily allow me to drop down a bit.

You can easily drop down a few meters to work moves while using a cam style tr solo device like a Soloist or Ushba Basic. Just grab the rope to unweight the device slightly and lean back while batmanning down the rope. Very easy. I think you'll be shocked at how far you fall and how poorly a tr feeds with the Silent Partner. Plus with the Silent Partner you can't easily hang on the rope to work hard moves. Working routes that are beyond my ability to onsight is really the only reason I ever tr solo.

Febs wrote:Also, I am searching for something that I could also rappel with.

Seems to me that adding a Cinch to your Minitrax would be just the ticket then. Sling it with a short runner above the Minitrax and when you get to the top push it up to take out the slack, load the Cinch, lock the cam on the Minitrax open and then rap. Or leave the Cinch off until you get to the top; it's able to be installed even on a loaded line.

True, this wouldn't handle down climbing, but not much will.

JacksonLandFill wrote: 3 meters... it was from the anchor, no free falling involved, but the drum did lock. After that I did a test for 'free fall': 15' sycamore branch, pulled out some slack and let go. Ow. But I did not hit the ground. I did not try using my body to add friction, though I'll certainly give it ago. It's not something I do when using a BRD either. Since the pulley spins i.t passed rope rather quickly and the weighted end of the rope got rather thin, the 6mm prussik cord did not want to bite... with the 10.2 rope this is less of a problem(for me). Yeah, using the prussik is part of my own safety routine. I have bookmarked this thread and will post an update once the 19 degree weather eases up. Locker has a valid point. BUT Roped solo climbing is what the SP was designed for.

Sorry to bother you again, but I'd really love to understand as much as I can before trying on my own.

It took some time to me to realize your prusik story; that's because I am used to put the backup knot below the descending device (which I extend using a runner). Of course I can't extend the SP; so the backup should go above it.

Still, a three meters fall was a BIG one (and if I got it right, the SP caught you anyhow, not the prusik).
Tell me if I got it right (if not, I am sincerely sorry and I kindly praise for your patience):
You started to unload the SP so to rappel down. You suddenly realized that you could not easily control the feeding of the device, and it "eat" up your rope, so took speed all of a sudden. Then, when that speed was enough, the device locked.
Is that correct?

Locker, I am buying the SP to rope solo lead; but I'd love to know how to use it to top rope as well for several reasons (mostly the ones I described in the first post).

Jon, your sentence " I think you'll be shocked at how far you fall and how poorly a tr feeds with the Silent Partner. " is scaring the heck out of me. I guess I am starting to realize why nobody is talking about it as a TR device.

I guess I'll ask on ST as well later as Arin suggested, to read from more users.

Thanks all, your help is really appreciated.

Febs wrote:Peter: have you actually used the device? How long have you ever fell before the unit engaged? Was that a sloppy terrain, or a vertical one? Thanks again buds

I've used it on TR on 80-degrees-to-vertical terrain. I'd say the farthest fall was about 15-20 feet. Not too bad, but not what you expect on a top-rope.

Given that the biggest safety advantage of the SP is that it arrests an inverted fall, it does seem like some of the other options might be a little more convenient.

But that's not what you asked. You asked if it was possible, and it is!

EDIT TO ADD: You'll want to use pack to weight the bottom of your TR rig while using a SP. More than 25 lbs. It can be tough to get the length right: tie it in with a clove so you can adjust it.

Peter Jackson wrote: I've used it on TR on 80-degrees-to-vertical terrain. I'd say the farthest fall was about 15-20 feet.

I had to convert that in metric to get an actual idea of what you were talking about.

Man, 20 feet is 6 long meters! That is a LONG way towards the ground!

Gosh.

By the way.
According to the manual, simply giving it a quick thug should lock the unit. How can a fall take so much time and rope before the device locks? I am really having an hard time figuring it out.

Febs wrote:By the way. According to the manual, simply giving it a quick thug should lock the unit. How can a fall take so much time and rope before the device locks? I am really having an hard time figuring it out.

Well a 1 sec free fall would have you falling about 5m and traveling 9.8 m/s. I imagine a person could easily get the drum spinning at 9.8 m/s with a quick flick of the wrist.

(v = g * t and d = 0.5 g t^2)

Febs wrote:By the way. According to the manual, simply giving it a quick thug should lock the unit. How can a fall take so much time and rope before the device locks? I am really having an hard time figuring it out.

Because that's how the device works... It's a bidirectional roller clutch, and activated by changes in angular velocity. A vertical drop with a bit of slack out will lock it up immediately. A slow, sliding slab fall might take a bit of bouncing. This, BTW, is exactly why it's possible to rap on it... Slowly paying rope through it keeps the clutch rollers centered in the unlocked position.

For the visually inclined, here's the patent pic (which I happened to post to ST earlier today, in response to someone else asking how it works). The parts in question are numbers are 40, 50, and 52:



EDIT: Or watch this video (skip to 0:35), keeping in mind the SP is bidirectional, not one way like in the video, so requires changes in rotational velocity rather than being directional- youtube.com/watch?v=QjR7dim…

"You started to unload the SP so to rappel down. You suddenly realized that you could not easily control the feeding of the device, and it "eat" up your rope, so took speed all of a sudden. Then, when that speed was enough, the device locked.
Is that correct? "

Exactly. I stopped a little ways down and switched to a Metolius BRD. Low angle portion of the climb made this easier to do. This weekend I will rig up on the ground and give it another try and see if I can't get a little more finesse.

And yes the prussik cords are above the device unlike a most of us who usually attach the cord to our leg loops with other devices.

Thanks everybody once again for the informations about the unit inner working and for the physics freshen-up (btw, "g" is 9.8 m/s^2), just to be picky). Now what would really be nice to know is what is the actual speed at which the SP locks.

Whatever that precise value is, it really looks like in a top rope fall it would take too long to stop for my taste. No way I will test a route hard for me where I can hit the ground if I fall in the first five meters. Five meters are more than enough to get pretty much badly hurt! It really shocks me that those (or at least, some) reference values are not mentioned in the manual.

What is there is simply:
"On steep routes, the Silent Partner will lock quickly when you fall
since you will pick up speed quickly. On low angle routes it will take
longer for you to pick up enough speed to activate the locking
mechanism"

Well, five meters on a mostly vertical terrain is not what I'd call "quickly".

9.8 m/s^2 * 1s = 9.8 m/s

jon apprill wrote:9.8 m/s^2 * 1s = 9.8 m/s

So right, I misread it. :)

Febs wrote:Now what would really be nice to know is what is the actual speed at which the SP locks.

There isn't one, Febs. As I mentioned above, it locks based on changes in rotational velocity of the drum. If the change is gradual enough that the rollers (part 50) don't overcome the pressure of the centering spring (part 52), they'll stay centered on the locking ramp (part 40) and the drum won't lock. Hence it being possible to keep it from locking while rapping while at the same time a sudden tug will cause it to lock.

Naturally this gets an order of magnitude more confusing once you start incorporating thinner/stretchier ropes (which will reduce the rotational acceleration of the drum and thereby inhibit locking) and slipperier ropes (which don't let the clove lock up as quickly. But in a nutshell, that's how it works.