BD X4, ongoing real-world review (will update over time)

Love the .5 and .3. Fantastic placement. Not having problems with my triggers. Sometimes they do get bent and that makes Em kind of weird to place...

Anybody have a release date on the offset versions ?

This late spring is when they said.

great cant wait for those.

Ryan Nevius wrote: As a follow-up, here's a photo of my .4 X4. This was taken AFTER scraping off as much glue as I could without damaging the "wires." In this photo, I am squeezing the trigger VERY hard. It would be highly unlikely that anyone would squeeze the trigger with this much force in the field. Regardless, the extra couple of unusable millimeters that result make me REALLY cautious about placing these cams anywhere where they may walk (and get fixed). While this unusable portion is at the point of "overcamming," it also prevents a second from being able to use the cam's full range of motion to clean a piece.

I didn't scrape any of the glue off of mine and they retract like in your picture with moderate force. If I pull in the trigger as hard as I can they retract fully. Guess there is some variation. I wonder if over time they will "break in" and be easier to fully retract.

Went climbing in Cali, including Yosemite after the shutdown for five weeks. Between my buddies and I we had all the x4's except the .4. So far my impression is they are nice pieces, but nothing to special with the exception of one. The .5 is now my favorite cam on my entire rack. We whipped all over that thing last month and it worked like a charm. The real reason it is my favorite is because after heavy use you really see how that more narrow head makes it such a crucial piece. It literally saved my ass numerous times when nothing else on my rack would fit, including the C4 .5.

We never had any trouble cleaning them, even in over cammed placements. Pull the trigger and yank that sun of gun out. Easy.Done.Boom.

Ryan Nevius wrote: Regardless, the extra couple of unusable millimeters that result make me REALLY cautious about placing these cams anywhere where they may walk (and get fixed). While this unusable portion is at the point of "overcamming," it also prevents a second from being able to use the cam's full range of motion to clean a piece.

Actually for cleaning, the result is exactly the opposite. Because the extreme end of the range requires high force, it is difficult for the rope to walk the cam in. On the other hand, the second can then resort to using this final "reserve" to remove this cam.

In other words, the extreme of this cam range cannot be reached by accidental walking by rope movement but only by strong intentional, manual action by a person.

I own X4s. I don't notice any functional loss of range, but I don't place gear at >90% of camming. If this was marketed and executed differently, this would be a feature.

I seem to see several people posting pictures and complaining about the most nit-picky things. All the while there are ZERO scratches from actual use. Get out, plug, whip, and repeat. It's that easy. I guess I would be complaining too if I just spent $70 on a paperweight.

Panda Express wrote: Because the extreme end of the range requires high force, it is difficult for the rope to walk the cam in.

Not sure if I'm following you. Are you saying BD designed the springs to be especially stiff in the final stages of lobe retraction?

It seems that the reason people are having issues with retracting the lobes fully has to do with the tigger cable and its attachment to the lobe, not because of the springs requiring higher forces to retract.

Mitch Musci wrote: Not sure if I'm following you. Are you saying BD designed the springs to be especially stiff in the final stages of lobe retraction? It seems that the reason people are having issues with retracting the lobes fully has to do with the tigger cable and its attachment to the lobe, not because of the springs requiring higher forces to retract.

Read the postings before mine where people describe the problem.

People have X4's whose cables are glued to the lobes in such a way that makes camming them difficult, most or all in the range where the cam is overcammed anyways and whose range would not be used in practice.

The ideas in my previous post was consistent with this problem and everything I said applies.

Ok I did read the whole thread and you didn't answer my question or clarify your logic in regards to it. Just because it's harder to retract the lobes via the trigger around their max retraction doesn't mean the cam will walk less when placed in that range. True their are many factors that play into a cams ability (or inability) to walk but unless you are suggesting the actual spring tension is much greater around this range of max retraction, I don't think the issue being discussed affects the cam's walking ability.

Mitch Musci wrote: It seems that the reason people are having issues with retracting the lobes fully has to do with the tigger cable and its attachment to the lobe, not because of the springs requiring higher forces to retract.

^ this. At least in my case.

The inability to fully retract the lobes was due to the weird geometry of the apparently-overglued trigger cords. Finger pressure on the lobes EASILY effected additional retraction of the lobes. So I would say that there is not any less tendency to walk. Rather, any incremental compression due to walking - or pushing the unit into the crack - may well result in an extremely difficult removal. Which, not surprisingly, is how the unit came into my possession in the first place: someone stuffed it in at 90% retraction, on what clearly was the unit's first or second placement. I spent a long time dickin' it out using every trick I know.

Then I sold it.

Gunkiemike wrote:Then I sold it.

I came so close to ordering a whole set of them...this thread has me really thinking now. Maybe BD will make changes. In the meantime I have some Fixe aliens and mastercams that work just fine.

Mitch Musci wrote: I came so close to ordering a whole set of them...this thread has me really thinking now.

For what it's worth, it seems to be a case-by-case thing. I have two 0.75s, and one each of 0.5 and 0.4. None of them have the glue-related problems that have been described by others on this thread.

I'd be reluctant to order any online at this point, but, if you really are interested in them, checking them out at a local gear shop (where you can hold the cam in your hand and see if that particular one has the excessive glue issues) might be worthwhile.

Funny how folks are bitching about stuff in theory, but there aren't many stories of folks being unable to retrieve one. Even Gunkiemike got an overcammed unit out (I've seen other brands of cams left for good or stuck at 90%+ cammed that I've retrieved). Shit, on Frigid Air buttress we retrieved a blue master cam that had this issue that was left by the party in front of us in just a couple of minutes.

On that same climb I had a yellow X4 that my partner had placed and kicked into a crack so that it was both overcammed and so deep that the triggers were inside the crack. The little dimples they put on the trigger accommodate the "hook" from a nut tool very well and with minimal effort I removed the piece. It was a far easier retrieval than a MC or C4. Get out there and use these things. They're great.

Mitch Musci wrote:Ok I did read the whole thread and you didn't answer my question or clarify your logic in regards to it. Just because it's harder to retract the lobes via the trigger around their max retraction doesn't mean the cam will walk less when placed in that range. True their are many factors that play into a cams ability (or inability) to walk but unless you are suggesting the actual spring tension is much greater around this range of max retraction, I don't think the issue being discussed affects the cam's walking ability.

You are correct, my bad, this doesn't apply to walking. This theory might still apply to someone carelessly overcamming, unless they were really pulling on the triggers the second can still use this "reserve" to remove the cam. I still think this is a good idea if it could be implemented to reduce walking to 100% camming.

On a related topic though, I've stuck cams multiple times and I often resort to a nut tool or the blade of a knife to reach into the crack to manually manipulate the lobes. I've always been able to reach the lobes with my tool. By some combination of "camming" and unslotting with the action of my nut tool, I've had luck in removing cams when I could not remove it using the triggers alone. This often happens with mastercams, C3s.

Another strategy that might be applicable to this glueing problem is slinging the triggers with a runner and tying this into your harness. Then you can pull back your body, applying much greater force than you could with your fingers, onto triggers/cam to try to remove it. In the extreme case you can make a short fall onto this runner. This strategy is situation dependent and would be the final strategy in removing a cam since this is most likely to damage the cam. It can also pop out and nail you in the nuts.

Patrick Mulligan wrote:Funny how folks are bitching about stuff in theory, but there aren't many stories of folks being unable to retrieve one. Even Gunkiemike got an overcammed unit out (I've seen other brands of cams left for good or stuck at 90%+ cammed that I've retrieved). Shit, on Frigid Air buttress we retrieved a blue master cam that had this issue that was left by the party in front of us in just a couple of minutes. On that same climb I had a yellow X4 that my partner had placed and kicked into a crack so that it was both overcammed and so deep that the triggers were inside the crack. The little dimples they put on the trigger accommodate the "hook" from a nut tool very well and with minimal effort I removed the piece. It was a far easier retrieval than a MC or C4. Get out there and use these things. They're great.

It's not just theory. I've tested these in the field and, after having done so, I'd reach for a Master Cam or Alien before the X4 every time now. I haven't had one permanently fixed, but I have had to dick around with them more than should be necessary due to the cams' inability to fully retract via the trigger. I should be able to place a cam in its usable (i.e. not overcammed) range with the expectation of being able to remove it. I can't with some of my X4s.

It's a flaw, in theory and in the field. It affects some sizes and for some batches. Seems pretty straightforward.

I've heard that master cams are getting a re-work. Looking forward to some nice tweaks on those.

I'll wait on the BD until they work out more of the bugs.

Totem basics I am very interested in, but want to see the new Mastercams first.

Spri wrote:I've heard that master cams are getting a re-work. Looking forward to some nice tweaks on those. I'll wait on the BD until they work out more of the bugs. Totem basics I am very interested in, but want to see the new Mastercams first.

when are the new master cams supposed to come out? i can't find any info online about it.

I have had the glue issues with .4 and the .5 (don't have a 0.75), scraped off the excess glue with a screwdriver and now they retract 100%.

Otherwise, they are great cams but nothing groundbreaking compared to aliens or mastercams. The equivalent c4s feel more secure but don't fit into as many placements due to head width.