Building a Non-Retrievable Rappel Anchor

doligo wrote: +1! I like finding double-triple redundant anchors made of shiny biners and sometimes cams in the mountains.

Kyle O wrote:Lots of retrieveable rappel anchor systems and setups out there, checkout techniques for "ghosting" canyons sometime. Or check out the Imlay Sand Trap .

The Cowardly Noob wrote: Great advice. To the OP: to answer your question, for when you need to bail quickly off a cliff, look into ghosting canyons.

I've been climbing for 42 years now but have only recently come to the realization that biners are cheap and that it's far faster, easier and safer to leave them then to monkey around with slings and clever systems.

rging wrote: Because there is always a pile of sand and pothole available in the middle of a climb.

The Cowardly Noob wrote: Great advice. To the OP: to answer your question, for when you need to bail quickly off a cliff, look into ghosting canyons.

Mark Hudon wrote:I've been climbing for 42 years now but have only recently come to the realization that biners are cheap and that it's far faster, easier and safer to leave them then to monkey around with slings and clever systems.

15' of 5/8" webbing is like $4, and a couple cheap rap rings... Your out $6 in the end... And you've got something that'll hold a truck. Stick the 2 rings in the middle, water knot it, tie the rings in an overhand... It'll still be there 5 yrs from now, and it's cheap and redundant dude... Leave the complicated knots to sailors, heh heh heh...

One thing to note, I've read your not supposed to girth hitch Dyneema. I know I have in the past, but the climbers I climb with here, and several others I've read about say it's a no no... Just a heads up. hence, I don't do it any more...

Rockbanned wrote:One thing to note, I've read your not supposed to girth hitch Dyneema. I know I have in the past, but the climbers I climb with here, and several others I've read about say it's a no no... Just a heads up. hence, I don't do it any more...

I keep a few knotted slings around for their defined use, but also so I can untie and use them to set up an anchor to bail off of, or retied to a tree anchor that only has sun baked tat on it. A few leaver biners and you are set. Keep it simple, and keep it safe. Learn more about anchors, the book is great, but a mentor is even better.

Just downclimb Brah!

Kyle O wrote: Lots of retrieveable rappel anchor systems and setups out there, checkout techniques for "ghosting" canyons sometime. Or check out the Imlay Sand Trap

"Examine the SandTrap as canyoneers rappel and add more sand or reposition the SandTrap if it appears sketchy." Yeah, no thanks!

Read the books and do it the way it's done by everyone else...

Mark Berenblum wrote:

"Examine the SandTrap as canyoneers rappel and add more sand or reposition the SandTrap if it appears sketchy." Yeah, no thanks!

Read the books and do it the way it's done by everyone else...

I would imagine the OP has either learned the appropriate techniques or is no longer climbing in the ensuing 4 years since this thread was last active.

I’ve been climbing for over a decade, and I would be completely comfortable rapping off of that. You have a bomber, equalized system there, unless I’m missing something. What you did with photo 3 in the tail is snazzy. I would explore different ways to finish step 7, would a bowline and stopper knot work better? 

I don’t climb with rap rings, so If I were to bail from that anchor I would use two shoulder length slings, 2 non lockers, girth hitch the bolts and have both biners clipped to both slings. Cost is similar, it’s faster and uses gear that also helps you climb upwards

Jon Rhoderick wrote:

I’ve been climbing for over a decade, and I would be completely comfortable rapping off of that. You have a bomber, equalized system there, unless I’m missing something. What you did with photo 3 in the tail is snazzy. I would explore different ways to finish step 7, would a bowline and stopper knot work better? 

I don’t climb with rap rings, so If I were to bail from that anchor I would use two shoulder length slings, 2 non lockers, girth hitch the bolts and have both biners clipped to both slings. Cost is similar, it’s faster and uses gear that also helps you climb upwards

This is a necro of an old thread.

If you only have sewn runners there are simpler ways to do it. Leave carabiners and gtf on the ground.

If you feel you need to tie macrame to equalize the anchor to support body weight you shouldn't be rapping off that anchor. Its a myth that you will equalize it anyways. Seek to merely minimize extension.

ALWAYS carry tied runners on a route that you might need to bail off of....like every route have a couple or four tied runners to save bulk at least in the pack to send up to someone or pull out in need.

Rap rings cost as much as carabiners. They are left on anchors semi-permanently because they wear better than carabiners. But no one carries them around on a regular basis.

Dylan B. wrote:

I this this is a misleading sentiment. Yes, we know that forces in a fall are rarely if ever equally distributed to the several anchor points. But first, were' not talking about a fall here; we're talking about rappelling. In that case, I'm not persuaded that two, equal-armed static slings to a rappel ring are not pretty damn close to equalized. And secondly, even absent perfect equalization, I think there remains merit in distribution of the force in principle, even if there are field situations where other considerations are more paramount.

That said, I agree the OP's idea here seems over-engineered. Working too hard to get a rap-ring into a bail anchor when a 'biner will do just fine. 

Its not misleading and it has been covered ad nauseum in other threads. Its a clarification (as best as I am able) of the myth of equalization.  

"Equalization" is misleading....:)

In virtually any test of an anchor placed in stone and then stitched together with slings only one piece bears the vast majority of load. The anchor then fails sequentially with successive pieces taking the load themselves and failing in turn because it is impossible (other than perhaps with the dangerous sliding X) to have both slings be precisely the proper length to equalize the load (especially with the poor stretch of Dyneema).

Bolts (or other fixed anchors) are never placed precisely correctly to allow perfect equalization with equal length slings. And chains do not stretch at all, when used there is no equalization, just a minimization of extension.

Tying in with a dynamic rope (cordalettes are not dynamic rope, generally) allows some sharing of portions of load after the initial load as the rope stretches, but this is inconsequential under body weight (or slightly higher) loads. Dynamic rope does share loads better when they are high enough for stretch to help, but one piece still always bears the brunt.

Getting the lengths of slings/chains/what have you precisely the right length is impossible. One piece will take the initial load and in the case of very low stretch Dyneema, nearly all of the load until if fails.

The goal is to limit extension when this occurs. Cordalettes do a good job of limiting extension, but tying in with the rope and using its dynamic properties far out weigh the disadvantage of an inevitable small amount of extension. Anchors stitched together with dynamic rope have peak loads nearly half of those with dynema or static cord.

In the OP's case, what he should be doing is tying into the anchor points with tied runners (not sewn). That is the simple way to limit extension as their length can be adjusted. If he doesn't have tied runners then leave biners behind rather than girth hitching. If he needs to adjust the length of one sling that can be done by simple overhand knots to take up length.

The point of regurgitating the debunking of the myth of equalization is to educate that people should be using anchors where they have total confidence in all its components and particularly identify the main load bearing piece and make certain it is adequate. This will make them safer climbers. Not macrame :)

Marc801 C wrote:

I would imagine the OP has either learned the appropriate techniques or is no longer climbing in the ensuing 4 years since this thread was last active.

Oops! Not sure how I managed to dig up a thread that died 4 years ago, but yes, I think that's a fair assumption.