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Solo gri gri question

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Abram,

I don't understand your comment. How will the sling breaking give you a softer catch?

The Klemhiest is a one way knot. It will hold one way and release the other way. If you fall, and have your Klemhiest slings built from a 3 foot loop of cord, the knot will move up with the stretch of the rope, hit the biner at the piece its anchored to and release. Later, as the rope moves back down, the knot will grab again. I saw this happen when I fell on Zenyatta Mondatta alongside my rope. When I cleaned the pitch, the knot was again holding the rope.
Sweet, eh?

Klemhiest knot
See how the stretch in the rope would cause the Klemhiest knot to hit the green biner? That will cause the knot to release, allowing the rope to flow through it and provide you all of the advantages you expect from a dynamic rope.

See that big loop of rope?
I didn't feel the need to use a Klemhiest to hold the weight of the rope on this pitch. I didn't think the Gri-gri was back feeding.
This was on a pitch rated A4 on Zenyattata Mondatta (it wasn't really) but you can see that I would have gone for an additional 30 had I fallen.

Abram Herman · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined May 2009 · Points: 20

Mark, I didn't mean my system gave a softer catch than what you mentioned, I just meant a softer catch than if the rope was directly tied to the piece. I like your system in that it would still hold the weight of the rope after taking a fall, allowing you to lead on without lowering down to set up the rebelay again. The only thing I like about my system is that it only requires you to carry a few tiny loops of twine, but I suppose slings/cord aren't much more weight, and they can be used in multiple ways. Good tip!

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Oh, yes, I see.

Yeah, the cords don't weight much and if you are using a Silent Partner you only need a couple.

Serial Crusher · · A house · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 1,030

Pretty raw video, but bottom line is it works. Lots of ways to screw it up, but with the right diameter rope and the right preparation its easy to lead or shortfix with it efficiently. I always tie a stopper knot to the end I'm leading on - no need to find yourself free soloing 10 pitches up on accident if the rope backfeeds completely - something easily avoidable with an alpine butterfly tied to a piece to take some rope weight off. A step down in speed from the PDL, but a step up in safety for the little extra effort of piling your line into a backpack before you set off on the next pitch. Not to mention being able to completely climb alone.

Pete or Hudon - any suggestions? Thanks...

youtube.com/watch?v=mOehEdF…
youtube.com/watch?v=AN38LK0…

Peter Zabrok · · Hamilton, ON · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 645

Holy crap. I get really nervous when I see that gigantic loop of rope in Mark's photo above!!

Having just completed my first big wall solo in something like ten years, here is what I can tell you:

- I self-belayed with a regular Grigri on 11mm rope, plus a backup knot

- I used long upside-down Klemheist rebelays about three or four times per pitch. These worked superbly! Not only did they prevent unnoticed and unwanted slack from slipping through the Grigri, they also rebelay the rope during cleaning. Properly tensioned, what this means is that when you clean, your weight is taken by each subsequent Klemheist directly above you, and not the upper anchor. So instead of the rope rubbing across edges all the way up the pitch while you jug and clean, you can prevent it from rubbing *anywhere* with the Klemheists! What this meant was that I started my solo with a brand new unabraded rope, and I finished with a brand new unabraded rope!

- This method above kicks the sh|t out of any other system like rubber bands or duct tape because of its simplicity [easy once you get the hang of it] and the rope rebelay benefits

- I brought a separate mountaineering half rope, and used this as a double tag. I had two piglets side by side on fifis [the new style with the slots, thanks to Mark Hugedong for introducing me to these, and to Mike for giving me his to use equipped with the quick links!] and I backed them up with my slippery overhand knot invention. As I rapped to clean the pitch, a hundred pounds of weight went up for free.

- This double tagging system was fundamental to the enjoyment of my big wall camping system! I only blew it once, but once I got it dialled it worked pretty much perfectly. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

- I was using a 60m rope, instead of my usual 75m rope or so. What this meant that it was problematical tagging a load up to mid-pitch. This is because the load is too heavy to do by hand, and I had to put the lead rope through a Micro-Trax to haul it up. But the rope was too short, and limited when I could do it. It was also too much of a pain to set up an anchor mid pitch

- Accordingly, I would just throw my whole lead rack on when I started the pitch. Only a few times did I have to rap back to the anchor to grab more stuff. I found it asphyxiating wearing so much crap at the start of each lead - I could hardly even breathe, let alone move! This might have been the part of soloing I hated the most.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Pete,
When you pull up your tags bags while you rap, what do you do at the bottom of the pitch to secure them above you? Do you have their ropes through a mini-trax or something like that?

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Aaron, I just noticed your vid. He was using a Gri-Gri to self belay? You know, for the most part, a Gri-Gri is fine. That said, it might get tangle up in your gear and drop you to your backup knot. If you are diligent, and checking things all the time, you'll probably be fine. BUT you are taking that chance.

Btw "internethardman" Ha! Aren't we all, eh?

Serial Crusher · · A house · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 1,030

Mark, yes. Its a Grigri that I ground some of the back plate off of, and installed a piece of 3 mil in the bottom of to keep it oriented correctly - ie slack comes from above and leaves downward toward my last piece/anchor. Sort of a hybrid of a few of the pictures earlier in this thread. Both mods basically are just so the rope has less contact with the cam inside the Grigri, making it feed smooth enough for actual free climbing. I don't use any backup knots, as I tested it extensively with a toprope backup and it caught me 100% on falls up to around 30'. I'm sure it would catch bigger ones, I just didn't TEST it farther than that. It feeds fine for dynamic moves and climbing at my limit. The big things that scare me with it are making sure that it is ACTUALLY closed when I clip into it (pretty easy to do when you orient the handle toward you like I do((easier for rapping)), and slow slab falls - which can be changed with a rope thicker than mine. I use a 9.8mm for the mod to work smoothly and consistently. My *rebelay* is an alpine butterfly when I feel like the rope is going to pull itself through to the end. Never had an issue with it 'getting all tangled up in my gear.' ...now I just need to figure out how you big kids dock your bag on the fifi :)

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Sounds like you have it figured out, but, dang, no backup, that would scare the shit out of me!

Serial Crusher · · A house · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 1,030

The rope IS a backup. I climb a ton, as I'm sure you do, too. How many times have you just started falling unexpectedly? Usually I know when I'm about to go. Probably 2 big lead falls for me EVER - the kind where it happens so fast its already over. One was a piece pulling in bad rock, aiding, the other was a foot slipping off of something I should have known better than to stand on. Everything else is a TAKE or a WATCH ME or HEADS UP etc. For those its easy to plug in a piece, or weight a bolt, as the Grigri, soloist or whatever you are using will hold you if you commit your weight to it.

Just one internet hardguy's philosophy, anyway.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

I'm more thinking if the Gri-Gri messes up and does not catch for some reason. You know of course that this has happened, numerous times.

Take my concerns with a grain of salt though. Pete has soloed quite a few El Cap routes with a Gri-Gri and I'll bet that most El Cap solos use one. The base is not littered with their bodies so using one must not be that deadly.

I've soloed El Cap twice with a Gri-Gri and lived to tell the tale.

When I did the NIAD, leading every pitch, I short fixed every pitch and climbed off the anchor every time with a PDL hanging from my harness. I didn't think that was completely unsafe because I was relying on my skill for safety.

To each his own, I guess is my point. In this one regard, I'd rather go with the tried and true and designed for soloing Silent Partner.

A5scott · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 0
"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:Mark Hugedong
hahaha Pete, funny! Mark needs a bigwall stuffsack for each teste, and a portaledge stuffsack for his donger.
ok back to the thread...

scott
Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

The question is not " Will the grigri catch a standard lead fall...." No doubt there is no other single device made that has caught more. What you should be concerned about is what happens when you take an upside down whipper pulling a piece and the rope wraps around your leg. Or when you take an aid fall and one of you aiders is draped over the handle on the grigri. Either of those situations will potentially keep the grigri from engaging. Also if you ground down the tab and hold the grigri up from your chest harness it does not always catch upside down falls. I am betting you haven't tested any of those falls yet.

There is no good reason to not have at least a single backup knot when rope soloing, especially on multi pitch climbs. Would you climb with a partner untied from the rope? After soloing for 20 years I still have surprises, sometimes on pitches I have done a dozen times before. If you think you are invincible and don't need a backup, make sure you are prepared to be ropeless. I have had 30 feet of slack feed through my SP without even knowing it, only my backup knot kept me attached to my system. It sure would be embarrassing to need a rescue on a route because you were foolish enough not to not be tied to your rope. Shit happens, and when it's just you up there you need to be smarter than the average climber.

Ok stepping off the soap box.....

Serial Crusher · · A house · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 1,030

Mark, thanks for the speedy replies, and not being a "my way is always right" internet type child clown. I appreciate your feedback and experience.

Kevin, yes, I do use a stopper knot to keep the rope from backfeeding entirely. Just not a backup knot mid-rope. When I pile my slack into my backpack, the first thing I do is tie a mondo stopper knot, and clip it into a buckle I created INSIDE my backpack. This serves a dual purpose. 1:The entire rope cant whiz through my device if I get too lazy to *rebelay* as mark and pete call it. For me, I just call it an Alpine Butterfly clipped to a piece to take rope weight off, making the backfeeding less of an issue, 2: when I get to an anchor, if I have used less than half of my rope, I can pull out slack, tie it to the anchor, and rap down with the grigri already set up, zero reconfiguring. To me, a major advantage over the other devices.

I agree with you it would be stupid to solo with no knots anywhere in the rope, solo devices DO backfeed. I just think its more of a pain to come across a knot you tied somewhere in the middle 'in case,' especially when you don't know when that will be. It could be mid-crux? Seems like a recipe for disaster, but maybe we are saying the same thing and I just generally misunderstood you. Im not a fan of 50 clove hitches tied to my belay loop.

Upside down falls? Cant say that I've ever taken one. But I dont make a habit of blowing moves with my leg behind the rope. Also, I have used it on aid, but if I was aid climbing I see the SP as a superior device. Just the Mod Grigri as superior for free, so for 'aiders getting all caught up and stuff,' ...maybe when shortfixing...but the rope length is much less, and youre still tied into the end anyway.

I dont think im invincible, and I do appreciate the mature argument...a hard thing to find on internet forums. So can I ask, what do YOU use as a backup knot? Are you the ultrasafe guy climbing 5.7 with four lockers full of clove hitches on your belay loop, or do you tie a single bomber knot in the middle of the rope, or the main stopper knot/tie into the slack end, catastrophic backup only guy like me?

Thanks

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

Pete,
How long were you up there? We were over on the Muir and were in the Valley for a week and saw you hanging out making a little progress each day. How many days did you end up spending on the wall?

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
" Or when you take an aid fall and one of you aiders is draped over the handle on the grigri"

Calling Charles Murphy!
Mickey Sensenbach · · San luis obispo CA · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 140

aaron:

the back up knot is very mandatory and needs to be done! if you dont like knots on your belay loop then there is a soulution! I put like 5 clove hitches on my gear loops in order of to be used... I put the one that I am relaying on for a back up on my full strenth belay loop so I only have one at a time and not 5! also if you do a bit of planning you can easily make sure you are not mid crux getting screwd by a back up loop! just play around with it because just because you have a stopper knot on the very end... no one wants to see you take a 200+ foot whip on the rocks! that would be hurendous!

Serial Crusher · · A house · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 1,030

Mickey, that seems like a lot of work/foot of actual climbing. I don't want to take a 200' whip/deck either. You are saying that you tie 5 or so backup knots, clip them to your gear loops, and unclip them/reclip them to your belay loop "as you need them?" So where does the rope go? Giant loops hanging under you? Seems kind of epic versus just having it all in a backpack. If I thought the grigri might fail I wouldn't be using it in the first place. Does anyone have any actual evidence of the modded grigri failing? I always hear 'it wont catch if you invert' and statements like '200 foot whip' which seem to draw on some greater knowing. Anyone actually experienced/tested it or is it just heresay. Thanks.

Unclipping/reclipping backup knots leaves you 'unclipped' for a second, too. So either you 'double back yourself up and release one afterward,' or you are not backed up while you release one and add the new one to your belay loop. Seems like a lot of room for getting things tangled, not to mention it will most likely be one-handed/not at a rest.

Any EXPERIENCED input appreciated

Cho · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 0

There was a Brit on Eagle’s Way on El Cap in 2002 who had his belay biner cross load and break. Technically, his grigri didn’t fail, but if it’s not attached to you, it ain’t going to do what it’s supposed to. He was going for the solo speed record, so he had back cleaned a bunch of pieces. One popped, so he fell down to a rivet, which broke, which then sent him to a direct fall onto his anchor. He ended up falling all the way down to his back-up knot. When he came to, and looked up, his grigri was still on the rope, but 20 feet above him. The total fall length was 60 feet. He was using a DMM belay master biner, but didn’t have the plastic bit clipped on, so it was a definite instance of pilot error. However, if you’ve ever put a grigri on a belay master you can still see how it would be possible to cross load and/or torque the grigri’s attachment point, especially with all of those weird orientations you get when you are soloing. Anyway, if he didn’t have a back-up knot tied, he would have decked from halfway up the Captain. The guy’s name was Tom Randall (see 2003 ANAM). Not sure if it’s the same Tom Randall of Wideboyz fame, but how many Brits named Tom Randall climb hard enough to attempt to speed solo Eagle’s Way?

I’ve also heard (second hand) about slow falls on low angle terrain where the grigri hasn’t engaged. I’ve never taken one of those falls, but when rapping down to far end haul on some low angle junk recently, my grigri did slip a few times.

I don’t have a ton of solo experience, so my systems are still evolving, but what works for ME is a grigri clipped to my belay loop with a steel biner. The steel biner has some duct tape wrapped at the top of the spine to prevent grigri float. I keep a separate large autolock biner clipped through the swami and leg loops. The backup knot (clove hitch) goes here. The clove is easy to undo and retie, or simply leave on the biner, and feed more rope through. I say this in relation to aid climbing only, but suppose something similar would be adaptable to free.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

Aaron,
I use a single knot backup( clove on locker) clipped to my belay loop. I solo with a Silent Partner and have climbed several thousand pitches with my current system. I gave up on the Modified Grigri after about 2 years of trials while trying to get fit enough to solo the NIAD. It is definitely a faster and lighter system, but I could not justify the additional risks. There are many others who feel the same way, just do your homework.

As for the backpack, I find climbing with a rope on my back slows me down and takes a lot of the fun out of it. I try to set up belays at ledges where I can stack my rope and use a rope bag on bigger routes. To each his own. While it is true that while untieing my backup I am not backed up for a second, i do have my new clove on my finger when I slip the old one off the biner so am pretty confident I could keep a grip on the rope if the unthinkable occurred. If I am sketched I tie a new backup knot before releasing the last. I find a backup loop is critical when using the SP to balance the rope weight and keep the device flowing freely.

Every soloist thinks their system is the best but most of the wanna be soloists give up after a few months. So if you stick with it for a couple years you are probably stubborn enough to get hooked. Fear of falling and distrust in your system are important ingredients in longevity as a soloist. No one is going to be there to save your ass if you screw up, so climb smart.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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