"Flowing" and thinking

surfing would blow some of your guys' minds

thinking for me is the planning part of my activity before a climb. if i know that it will be hard for me and at my limit i do a lot of thinking before the climb while looking at it and analyzing it all the while new thoughts pop into my head on what will work and what will not. after the preparing and planning i try to clear my mind of thoughts and expectations by taking deep breaths and closing my eyes until i am in a transparent state of mind. that is the moment i initiate climbing. while climbing i am flowing, not thinking, slowly solving the puzzle i previously analyzed, steps continue as if i am walking. Before i started the climb i had an idea of what to expect and how to surpass the difficulties, while climbing i only execute the moves, it sometimes feels like in a dream i already sent the climb that is if i get to the anchors. otherwise i get to a point where my vision was different from the reality of the climb meaning i fall or botch the sequence initiating my thoughts to analyze what went wrong.
ps I bet surfing has blown some of these guys minds i know it changed my life.

Bruce I am definitly checking that out. I appreciate all that reccomended it, Im always on the hunt for new (different points of view = fun and personally helpful to assist me in getting to know myself).

Ryan. Beautifully put my friend. Thank you for sharing your experience.

so do you strive (apply effort) to reach "flow" constantly? just sometimes? never? is it something that you try for or a byproduct of something else? what about off the rock? with the kids or friends? at work?

im asking alot purposely and am aware that people are coming in and out of this thread.

Great thread idea. I'm a graduate student in psychology (specifically health psychology), and though "flow" is outside of my research purview, I am very interested in the concept and how it applies to climbing. So, you've broken a seal and I'll need to geek out for a moment. I think WDW4 nailed it with this list:

1. Intense focus on the presnent
2. Merged activity and awareness
3. Loss of self-awareness
4. Sense of control over situation
5. Loss of time-awareness/ feeling of "timelessness"
6. Experience is intrinsically rewarding

I have had several experiences with achieving a flow state while rock-climbing and while playing hockey, but it's difficult to initiate on demand. However, and this is completely my opinion, I think the consistent ability to achieve a flow state (or at least an optimal state of mental arousal) is a primary ability that separates elite athletes from the rest. Climbers spend hours strengthening fingers, honing footwork, and dialing sequences, which are all certainly important, but how many of us work on our mental skill set? If you've ever fallen from the crux, and then immediately hopped back on the rock and finished the route the difference between sending and falling likely isn't that you can't crank sets of one-arms.

So a good follow up question to the original post might be: What can a climber (or any athlete) do to consistently achieve an optimal state of mental arousal, and hopefully a flow state?

Well, the items on WDW4's list sure sound a lot like meditation, so initiating a daily meditation practice would likely go a long way to helping a person achieve that present-moment awareness which is a key aspect of the "flow" state.

Visualization is also a useful technique because it allows you to focus on movement and feel (i.e., being present), since you've already mentally dialed the sequence. An interesting note that I read about visualization (and then I promise I'm done) is that if your mental rehearsal of a route/problem takes longer than it takes to climb the route in real time, then you're likely botching the sequence in your brain. In other words, if you can't send in your mind then you likely won't send on the rock. So it's important to visualize yourself moving efficiently through a sequence (i.e., crushing) when trying to reap the benefits of this practice. Okay, I'm done, sorry for the long response, but this stuff is really interesting to me.

Stoned

I do strive to reach “flow” constantly, for me I would say it is more akin to “feeling on point.” I strive to be efficient and effective in all things I do. I have a system for almost everything. I think of time and motion studies a lot. You should see me put away dishes lol, not a wasted movement. I guess the “flow” could be a byproduct of this, I’m not sure. With friends I don’t think about it much, I wouldn’t want to manipulate them in a situation or guide them down a path I would want them to follow. At work it is again about being efficient and effective, improving processes, being the best I can be at what I do, but I wouldn’t say I snap into the “flow.”

I think often of a quote I read from the Rock Warriors Way a while back: “Become a warrior whom seeks personal power.” The definition of “personal power” can be misconstrued into some selfish endeavor, but I believe a positive person would more likely view it as gaining confidence or self-assurance.

dlsask said: Climbers spend hours strengthening fingers, honing footwork, and dialing sequences, which are all certainly important, but how many of us work on our mental skill set?

thats what im applying effort towards. "great" observation.

dlsask beautiful post. I want to state quick that you can reach a constant state of "flow". 100% possible in theory right now(!), not many, in fact rarely do humans achieve this. when they do you know: the buddhas. the eckhart tolles and the oshos and the lao tses and the bodhidharmas, etc. the BRAVE (letting go of everything is scary ultimately...).

Ryan said: With friends I don’t think about it much, I wouldn’t want to manipulate them in a situation...

I appreciate that. I think "leave no trace" goes beyond the outdoors.

your posts are all amazing to me. im blown away like riding a gnarly left breaking barrel at ehukais (better than sex and equal to free soloing). seriously so much important...guiding points are here its mind blowing!

dlsask or anyone: how come there is a difference, qualitatively and process speaking, between memory and its realtionship to conciousness/unconciousness?

why when "flowing" is our memory different versus when not flowing? only in hindsight do we apply the labels, etc. what does that tell you? if anything? our memory and its function/effectiveness changes and very little is understood by science at this point.

Stoned.... good topic.
One of the things I like most about climbing is the times when IT just flows. My mind gets a little time out from all the extra thoughts that are always working through my mind. Things like: The bills are due, kids are screwing up at school.... etc.

When climbing at my max, I sometimes get so relaxed and focused that there is no fear or pain or distractions, just that moment....

Sometimes it almost seems that I am standing outside of my body watching myself climb.

Ever have that happen???

One of the other sports I do that will bring up this sort of state is Kart Racing.... not the indoor type but real 100 mph ones. The level of relaxation in a very stressfull situation (speed, walls flashing buy and the need to figure out passing) is almost the same.
I use skills I learned in climbing to attain this state.

Being good at something is all about the flow.

Guy said: When climbing at my max, I sometimes get so relaxed and focused that there is no fear or pain or distractions, just that moment....

Sometimes it almost seems that I am standing outside of my body watching myself climb.

BEAUTIFUL! what you called "...outside of my body watching myself..." is what I would label as "witnessing", indifference, like a rain drop in the vast ocean. thats the "byproduct" of witnessing a disconnect, an unconcerned state.

were all on the same page and not and that makes this interesting. but its cool to connect with others on this topic since its RARELY discussed. thank you all.

is "flow" something that can be given to someone? can it be taught? or is it something that needs to be caught (by being in the presence of someone whos intune with "flow")?

if you didnt have others to talk to about this how would you know what is flow and what is not?

The Stoned Master wrote:is it something that you try for or a byproduct of something else?

Neither, I'd say.

The Stoned Master wrote:do you think while flowing?

Yes, and no. But mostly no.

Recently, I've noticed that during a tough or complicated sequence of moves if I don't blast through it (not thinking, just gunning) then I won't make it. It's like my "Reptile Brain" climbs better than my thinking human brain.

I have a tendency to overthink crux's and the reality is, there's only a few select holds to work with and it's really just a matter of hitting them correctly. And for me, that means not wasting time and energy calculating.

I know how to climb, it's dialed into my muscle memory, I just need to act on it.

I still get a thrill out of climbing, literally. I get nervous, even scared. And because of that, my fine motor skills suffer. Not always, and not always to the point where my hands are like blocks and I can't say my own name. And I have my moments when I'm a thinking climber. But I've found on hard stuff that I tend to do my best just going for it rather than being calculating.

Michael C wrote: Recently, I've noticed that during a tough or complicated sequence of moves if I don't blast through it (not thinking, just gunning) then I won't make it. It's like my "Reptile Brain" climbs better than my thinking human brain

thats great you mentioned "reptile brain". This is offtopic (sort of, another branch of the topic if you will) but I see humans RIGHT NOW as a whole, caught between animal and human. sometimes we are like brutish animals(quick to react and not respond, emotionally unintelligent, unable to kick habits, etc) and sometimes we are refined, thinking, "well behaved" humans (responds, doesnt react, understands and accecpts males cry/have emotions, is aware of the habitualness that is mind, etc).

thanks for sharing michael.

dlsask wrote:I think WDW4 nailed it with this list: 1. Intense focus on the presnent 2. Merged activity and awareness 3. Loss of self-awareness 4. Sense of control over situation 5. Loss of time-awareness/ feeling of "timelessness" 6. Experience is intrinsically rewarding .... Well, the items on WDW4's list sure sound a lot like meditation,

Just to clarify, none of the items on that list are my ideas - all belong to the academic pioneer of the Flow Theory, Mr. "C", as cited in my first post.

For me I would describe the feeling of “flowing” or what I like to call the “The Mojo” as complete awareness of the moment without the fear of failure or hesitation, it’s almost an involuntary reaction. I know for each person the meaning “flowing” or mojo is different – But for me it’s the reason I keep coming back. It lets me know what I can actually do without the weight of everyday life.

I think Matt N., Jake, and others have explained it sufficiently and much better than I can. It's more ultimate in my head and I'd rather leave it there to hang on to for these long days at work.

sdm said: I think Matt N., Jake, and others have explained it sufficiently

+1 that.

more than one person said "let go". what are you letting go of? concept of self? desire? ego? what does someone need to "let go" of?

my cups filled already but if some of you would continue sharing/contributing i certainly will. i think about this subject daily so im always interested in this and similar topics.

I think there are a couple things being discussed here which are not equal.

It is possible to learn actions and then repeat them without conscious thought like using a spoon to feed yourself. Infants struggle to learn this skill but adults hardly think about it when it's happening. This would be similar to a redpoint attempt or a highly reherced action. I would not call that a flow.

A true flow would require unconscious thought. An hard onsight attempt would create such a scenario. If you are able to stop conscious thought during the attempt you will likely enter the state of flow. If the mind continues thought patterns such as being scared of something you will not enter the flow.

The flow is a connection with source. It is not a psycological effect but rather a spiritual reality. The minds constant need for conscious thought keeps us from experiencing this connection.

Jake Jones wrote:This does make me want to spark up a fatty though and ponder some more.

This man has attained flow.