"Flowing" and thinking

When you have that/those moment(s) where "it all just came together" and you "were one with the moment" and sent that problem/route that just seemed out of touch for you (difficulty wise for an example) are you thinking?

I want to leave it with just the questions: do you think while flowing? does your mind calculate moves still? if it calculates moves BUT you dont cling to the thoughts is that thinking or known as something else?

I am REALLY interested in what every climber/human has to say about those "magical moments" regardless of what difficulty you climb or your style (sport, gear, boulder, snow routes, etc).

Im thinking of this as a poll/survey at first, if people participate maybe itll grow into a mind blowing discussion? the potentials there. Thank you for your time.

The Stoned Master wrote: do you think while flowing? .

No for David. cool dude, thanks man!

No thoughts during those moments for me either.... It's so pure - I mostly feel grateful afterwards

When I am in the state of flow, there is a high level of mental engagement for me. I don't know if I would call it thinking. It as if I know exactly what to do and I am in a sort of heightened state. When I practiced yoga I had similar experiences.

SDM thank you.

SDM and David if you have a free moment could you elaborate please? Meaning you say no thoughts. is it that your mind stops calculating altogether? or you transcend (dont cling to, rise above, to include with the whole, etc) your thoughts/mind?

im aware this/these questions arent the easiest to answer (so thank you for your time) PLUS we all have so many definitions/words for the same thing. Im interested in the details if they are available and how you label it/them.

SMR said: I don't know if I would call it thinking.

thank you!

my opinion is that most wouldnt know if its considered thinking or not. Some know, most i think arent sure. its confusing! thats why im interested in this topic.

Hopefully this is kind of geared to what you're asking. When considering the idea of "flow" across sports like climbing, motorcycling, basketball, trap shooting etc; the idea essentially remains the same although perhaps takes different forms. The amount of mental intensity varies across these activities, not saying one is harder or easier than the other. With climbing and motorcycling, i really do not think while executing during activities like these. If i am chilling on a good rest or riding strait down the road with no visible hazards, thinking happens for sure. But the moment the sequence or turn begins, there is nothing in my mind except maybe the last song i listened to beforehand. I will also say though that i HAVE fallen off a route after coming out of my zone and comprehending what i just did, just because i got so overwhelmed i lapsed my concentration. Flow is some very powerful shit

I guess "flow" is a commonly used term, but a lot of people haven't read the literature behind it. If we're going to talk about it, we might as well do so with a common understanding of the term.

Csikszentmihalyi identified six characteristics of flow:

1. Intense focus on the presnent
2. Merged activity and awareness
3. Loss of self-awareness
4. Sense of control over situation
5. Loss of time-awareness/ feeling of "timelessness"
6. Experience is intrinsically rewarding

Of course, your flow-like experience may have some of these, all of these, or other characteristics. Sometimes other terms apply better, sometimes not.

I have had a few experiences of "heightened awareness" that were really cool, but they usually involved recognition of my weakness and then assertion of willpower to overcome those weaknesses. Included some thinking, definite self-awareness. Doesn't really fit the bill for flow.

Wake and bake?

Shouldn't this be in the "weed at crags" thread?

Getting metaphysical on the internet - woah man...

Brett and WDW4 thank you.

WDW4 said: Csikszentmihalyi identified six characteristics of flow:

1. Intense focus on the presnent
2. Merged activity and awareness
3. Loss of self-awareness
4. Sense of control over situation
5. Loss of time-awareness/ feeling of "timelessness"
6. Experience is intrinsically rewarding

I appreciate that you threw out a definition. I have never heard of the dude you mention. thanks for sharing.

A byproduct of this thread already shows that we know what were talking about (everyone whos responded so far has mentioned a similar experience), we just either dont have a definition or we use different labels/words or we just dont know (or have a hunch, etc).

one important commonality amongst posters is that they do not think while flowing. so:

can you flow AND think at the same time?

and theres no concensus yet wether your mind stops thinking/calculating while "flowing" or not. Are you sure it stops? or are you just not clinging/focusing on the thoughts/mind while flowing?

eric, matt and jake thank you!

eric i am going to check that dudes "work" out. thank you.

jake you mentioned something key: you are only aware in hindsight. what does that say about flow and memory?

why arent you recording/memorizing the same as if you were clinging to your thoughts? why the difference in quality of memory?

When I'm in the flow, I'm still thinking (about the movement, about what to do next, about how to respond to missteps, about my breath, etc.), but I let go of expectations and attachments. I don't think about how climb is supposed to go a certain way. Being somewhat OCD, if a climb starts to not go the way I've envisioned, it throws me off mentally and I lose the flow. Likewise, thinking about how much I want to climb a certain route or problem is a waste of brain space. I find that I get frustrated and sloppy when I want a climb too much. Instead of "listening" to the climb and to my body, I rush it and get thrown off.

This somewhat resembles
Four Stages of Competence

Sometimes when I'm at the urinals and there is a big line behind me I get stage fright. But then I try to let go and become one with the tiles I'm staring at. Then everything just starts to flow. Once I get the initial trickle I just relax and then things really take off, its quite amazing. I only realize what happened several hours later.

jaime and amarius thank you.

jaime said: When I'm in the flow, I'm still thinking (about the movement, about what to do next, about how to respond to missteps, about my breath, etc.), but I let go of expectations and attachments.amarius and jaime thank you.

a keyword/phrase I picked up on was that you "let go" of expectations and attachments. I call this non-clinging, indifferent (meaning unconcerned with a specific outcome, no worries), etc.

beautiful that you are aware to "let go", not many humans are concious of this idea/practice/experience of letting go.

I would say that I am thinking during those moments of “flow”, I am just intensely focused on the present moment. I can understand how some would describe this feeling as not thinking. As Eric said, sometimes you don’t even remember it, so when you get done with that pitch and in a sense snap back to reality, the feeling of having had a blank mind the whole time is there. For me though I think it is be more accurately described by the idea of my mind and thoughts flowing as smoothly as time flows by. I am deeply involved in thinking about and calculating every movement I make, but just like our perception of time, when that moment has passed, it is gone, and my mind is now completely focused on the new present moment.

Edit to add: I agree with the last few post that the ability to let go is key. It’s a hard thing to do, and something that I cannot do voluntarily very easily (if at all), but letting go of everything that has passed helps focus thoughts on the now.

To elaborate on 'no'...

I would say that when I am in the 'flow' on run-out gear there is little voice in my head yelling:

'Don't be a pussy!'

David thanks man.

King thank you also! letting go is hard but its like a bike: hard/ackward/uncomfortable at first but gets easier with time/exposure/experience. effort leads to no effort. no effort = part of the experience of flow (dont just think physical effort)

so far some say they think, some say they dont. some that think are focused on something (the moment or whatever) and some that think arent necessarily focused on anything specific.

were all on the same page and not on the same at the same time.

mr. stoned master
if you are interested in the flow experience please read
Flow the pyschology of optimal experience by mihaly csikszentmihalyi
you will not be dissapointed i assure you
sorry did not read above before i posted please excuse me

I think amarius got it-step 4 in the link.

Unconscious competence
The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

Stoned-I am definitely thinking when I am flowing. The difference for me is it’s in the background. I know physically what to do (I may have been on the route before or just read it from the ground) so I’m not telling myself to high step, reach right or lock off ect.

What I am thinking about is staying light on my hands, my breathing, initiating movement with my legs; but these are all things I process on the ground and go into the background as I climb, unless I find myself not doing these things, then I consciously tell myself what I need to do. There is definitely a heightened sense of awareness accompanying this “flow.” I perceive colors as more vibrant, notice the wind more, I also am more aware of what my body is doing (generally feel on point).

Jake makes a good point about confidence. That deadpoint hold doesn’t look as far away as all the other attempts. When I am physically strong (for me) I find it is easier mentally to achieve this “flow” state of mind. Jamie makes a good point about letting go of expectations. On Jaime’s point I try to strike a balance between really wanting to achieve success (drive), but not caring if I fail (indifference). I have made peace with consequences of the fall, failure and success, and am almost indifferent regardless of the outcome.

I only realize that I was in the “flow” after one of the 3 above (in the last sentence) has happened; More times than not this is followed by uncontrollable laughter. God damn I love rock climbing!