Hang Dogging and Downgrading

Marek Sapkovski wrote:

"like"

I just had a "life imitates art" situation. Me and my partner went out to check out another climbing area so for the whole day I pretty much failed to get up a single route. Everything was too burly for me. At the end of the day, I walked over to a group of locals that was top roping a nice looking finger crack and they invited me to try it. For whatever reason, I just flew up it on the first try. Very much not like me.
While I am being lowered to the ground I ask
--So, what is this, like 5.8?
--No, it's 5.11+.
I was embarrassed beyond belief and spend the next ten minutes apologising that I don't think it was softly graded, that I was just surprised it was easy for me etc..

I was so inspired by this forum, I went and hung Dog my way up one of my long term projects it is given a old school rating by the first accentionalis. Some guy named Jonny Woodward. 5.12 R.
I instantly down graded it to 5.10 it felt like good style and form!!! :)

Marek Sapkovski wrote:I just had a "life imitates art" situation. Me and my partner went out to check out another climbing area so for the whole day I pretty much failed to get up a single route. Everything was too burly for me. At the end of the day, I walked over to a group of locals that was top roping a nice looking finger crack and they invited me to try it. For whatever reason, I just flew up it on the first try. Very much not like me. While I am being lowered to the ground I ask --So, what is this, like 5.8? --No, it's 5.11+. I was embarrassed beyond belief and spend the next ten minutes apologising that I don't think it was softly graded, that I was just surprised it was easy for me etc..

Nice spray, but there's absolutely no way a 5.11+ crack felt like 5.8. Maybe they were on the wrong route?

Joshua Reinig wrote:I was so inspired by this forum, I went and hung Dog my way up one of my long term projects it is given a old school rating by the first accentionalis. Some guy named Jonny Woodward. 5.12 R. I instantly down graded it to 5.10 it felt like good style and form!!! :)

Yeah, it works the other way around if the FA includes Mr. Woodward and his accomplice Mr. Hensel!! Anything they grade is sure to be 'solid' by say, 2-3 letter grades.

Joshua Reinig wrote:I was so inspired by this forum, I went and hung Dog my way up one of my long term projects it is given a old school rating by the first accentionalis. Some guy named Jonny Woodward. 5.12 R. I instantly down graded it to 5.10 it felt like good style and form!!! :)

Hang dogging an R rate route? I can only assume you retro bolted it while hang dogging. Two wrongs, sir, do not make a right.

Colin R wrote: Or the Gunks/Daks Crowd for that matter. Seems we've reached a tipping point for downgrading whereby people are wondering what the use of a grade system actually is when everyone is aiming to downgrade. I know some old school climbers who sandbag but do so very consistently. I know often to add like two or three letter grades to their suggestions typically. To give credit to the old school crowd, there was a time when 5.12 really meant something where only a very limited number of climbers could do it. I am ok with old school grades in areas that are known to be sandbagged/old school but they should be limited to those areas and viewed only with a sense of nostalgia. In general there should also be some consistency to the ratings if we are going to have them at all.

Anyone in particular you have in mind here, Colin? Just curious of course...

While Dave Birkett's comment is a critical reality check, I don't think we need to flog ourselves for trying routes that are too hard or much too hard to onsight. Wolfgang Gullich made a nice observation in his "Sport Kletteren Heute" book. He said that for any given climb a climber is actually three climbers in one: a complete master who can leave the rope behind, a competent climber who may need the rope in the event of a fall, and a beginner who will be falling all the time. But, learning complex movement by dogging and falling are arguably the two most important changes in attitude that have advanced climbing standards. It's just important to make a reality check from time to time to see if the dogging and falling have helped.

Marek Sapkovski wrote: Yeah, like Coexistence or 10,000 Restless Virgins - I've done plenty of 7a+ routes that felt easier. Coming from France, I found Gunks to be very brutish and power-oriented, more like bouldering with a rope. Also, Gunks climbers take their + and "d" grades very seriously :)

First, I'm not a Gunks local, though I do climb there from time to time, and I've never really noticed it to be a particularly sandbagged area. Like all areas, there are certainly exceptions of course, but I digress.

With that said, I'd like to point out that there are two ways to interpret your experience on these routes. The first is that Co-Ex and 10,000 Restless Virgins are sandbagged relative to some hypothetical standard. The second is that those 7a+ routes (which I assume were bolted?) were not in fact 7a+ relative to some hypothetical standard.

Interestingly, the former interpretation places the emphasis externally: "I struggled on this route because it's actually harder than graded". The later interpretation has an internal emphasis: "I struggled on this route because I had an off day, I'm not good/strong enough".

One of those interpretation is certainly easier to swallow for all of us egocentric climbers. I submit that the other interpretation is often more honest.

To be clear, I don't presume to know anything about you and your climbing. I'm not in any way commenting about you specifically, or the particular routes you mentioned. I'm merely using your post as an illustration, so please don't take this personally!

Ryan Nevius wrote: Nice spray, but there's absolutely no way a 5.11+ crack felt like 5.8. Maybe they were on the wrong route?

Actually, it felt right around the given grade (gently overhanging finger locks with good feet), but I had to show off. Which is exactly the point, that most downgrades are not actually a contribution to the consensus but a spray.

Colonel Mustard wrote: In all fairness, it's a really unimportant thing you ask ;). Sure, I've known the dog 'n fluffer. You just point, laugh, and move on with your life. NBD.

Um - and that helps improve the route grades on MP how?

Of course what I'm asking for is relatively unimportant. So is everything we talk about here. A better question would be whether it would make things better or worse, and whether it's worth the trouble to implement the changes.

GO

and continuing with the unimportant things...
Why not take the average, remove 2 outliers on both side, in most case that would results in a good consensus, my 2 cents.

Tell 'em to get off your Island!

Fred Bonnard wrote:and continuing with the unimportant things... Why not take the average, remove 2 outliers on both side, in most case that would results in a good consensus, my 2 cents.

that would remove my grade from 90% of the routes :)

@ Slim: precisely my objective :)

doh!

I call it downward dog grading.

Maybe if the downgrading bothers you this much it's just a sign you're too concerned with the grades and what everyone else thinks.

Then again, it's rock climbing, it's just a big fun meaningless game so I guess we can care as much or little about all the details as we want!

Maybe on a very new route your experience is helpful, even if you hung. On the otherhand, our history in the gentlemanly pursuit of climbing is one of inclusivenes: being truely helpful. Maybe that's out of sync with the current "me ethos"? In any event, grading is an OPTIONAL screen here. Don't fill it in if you didn't do it ground up.

If you have serious disagreements, make a Comment. If you failed within a few letter grades, consider it within human variation and make a note in your tick list. We all have good and bad days.

Personally, ratings in different areas are relative to that area and are helpful for gauging the next climb there. I use them to keep me out of trouble, albeit a conservative approach. We're out there to have fun, your particular experience is a comment at best; the consensus will work itself out eventually by the folks who managed to do it ground up.

Have fun, we are PLAYING, nobody but you is keeping score.