High altitude training.

Anyone have any tips or advice on how to train for high altitude training? I'm not talking 8,000m but I'm hoping to get to 5,000m-7,000 next summer. I'm also looking for the best way to "weight" a pack for training on stairs and uphill hikes. Should I use my 50L pack and stuff it or could I simplify by just wearing a standard back pack with a sand bag or weights in it? Any suggestions are appreciated.

Lots of people use water bottles, and empty them for the descent to save wear and tear on the knees.

I like breathing ladders with a kettles ball. Check out this web site... trainingmask.com/

Take up smoking this winter. Your lungs will become accustomed to breathing reduced oxygen. Then quit in late spring/early summer in anticipation of the alpine season. That way your lungs will be used to efficiently absorbing oxygen in a low oxygen environment, but you will not be chemically addicted during the actual season, and can go without smoking while climbing, therefore, only subjecting your lungs to one form of oxygen deprivation.

Just kidding. Don't do this.

Ha! I could chain smoke 100's at the gym all winter and claim I'm trying the Zucco System. I like the water bottle idea for weight. I'm reading pros and cons on the mask.

Joe, I work for an altitude training center. Aside from using altitude simulation equipment there are a couple options. You can buy a breath trainer and do respiratory muscle training with it. Studies have shown these exercises can keep your SPO2 from dropping as much during high altitude exercise. They work a lot better than elevation masks, which do not provide much airflow resistance at all even at the "18,000 ft" setting.
Here is the link for the model we use on our athletes:
amzn.to/1aB5TIB

Another option is a sport supplement product called Mountain Might. I was part of the team that developed it. It actually biologically adapts your body to high altitude, by breaking down into signaling molecules that activate blood oxygen sensors in your body. Its safe, legal, and the science is sound. Its been getting a lot of reputable endorsements and blog coverage as well so you can Google around and learn more. Here is our website:
mmaltitudetraining.com/

Jason

I saw that mountain might product recently but I'd rather work for something opposed to taking something, the lung trainer may be worth a try. Why do you say the training mask doesn't limit your oxygen intake? The one con about the mask that I read is; although the mask limits the amount of air you take in the percentage of oxygen is still the same within that air, whereas high elevation the percentage of oxygen is actually different. Correct me if I'm wrong but basically it's just training your lungs and muscles to absorb more air do it gets the oxygen it needs to perform. It doesn't actually simulate high elevation breathing.....?

Elevation masks can limit your oxygen uptake, but by a very small margin. I have a lot of experience with them. At the 18,000 ft setting I have never seen an athletes Sp02 drop more than 2% even at prolonged maximal exercise--compare that to a 11-15% drop with a hypoxicator set to 18,000.. The primary benefit you would get from using it would be to strengthen respiratory muscles, but they do not provide a lot of resistance. With a breath trainer you make it extremely hard to breathe (literally over 100 X more resistance than a mask with a much larger range). Generally you would not do traditional exercise with a breath trainer in, but do special breathing exercises.

Also, you have it backwards. At high altitude (hypobaric hypoxia) the percentage of oxygen in the air is the same, there is simply less air pressure. Normobaric hypoxia, the type typically generated with altitude simulation devices (hypoxicators/tents, not masks) has less percentage oxygen with constant air pressure.

Thank you so much for the info, I'm new to this and eager to learn so having access to so much experience like the members on MP is great.

How long are you going to be at the destination for the climb, time to acclimatize? I'm not an expert, but as someone who is a flat lander who has taken some trips to higher altitude, he's my .02 cents. For the pack question: I have a weight vest that i stuff into my pack. I use some jackets as filler, so its not a sagging lump. Use the pack you are going to wear on your trip, so you are used to it. Got the weight vest from walmart online. I'm sure there are cheaper options, but seems to work for me. I find trail running to be really good to supplement hiking with the heavy pack.

I can't talk to the science of masks and so forth. Time and hydration are key for success as far as i know.

Have a great trip.

Joe Assad wrote:MP is great.

Yes MP is great for lots of things, but acclimatization for high-altitude climbing is very complicated -- well worth reading a good book: Medicine for Mountaineering, by Wilkerson.

Keep in mind that high-altitude mountaineering is mainly a team thing.

So even if you and some "altitude training" center come up with some program and some new chemicals that could get you going higher twice as quick as the other five people in your group, the tents are only going to move as high each day as most of the group can handle.

So rather than figure out the optimal training approach for you, more important to find and join a team with a compatible strategy. Then follow the training + chemical guidelines given by the team's Medical Officer.

There might even be cases where the team Medical Officer forbids the use of a chemical recommended by some :"altitude training" center -- because she/he is holding that same chemical in reserve in the team kit for possible emergency use.

Ken

Drink lots of water and take aspirin before your climb to get that good thin blood. Don't cut yourself or you'll die.

Ken I completely agree with your comments, I'm opposed to taking a 'chemical' or supplement to aid me whether it worked or not. I'm still digesting 'the mountaineering bible' and practicing anchors, rescue, ropes, gear, and cardio training along side climbing itself. Mountain medicine will probably work it's way into my reading this winter. I'm fortunate to have been introduced to climbing and mountaineering by someone with experience so I'm in good hands. Just looking to 'pull my own weight' when the time comes. I'm not relying solely on mp for my prep but taking advantage of its convience. Thanks again for all your comments. Joe

I remember some of the more recent research showed best outcomes when you train low and sleep high. Somewhat counter-intuitive and not always very practical. (darn!)

I always feel like prophylactic ibuprofen intake (600-800 mg) at elevation helps me perform better and avoid altitude sickness.

I just attended the Lhotka High Altitude Symposium in Boulder, CO. I could go on forever about all the fascinating things I learned, but of more value to the community will be this link, full of great resources: amga.com/high-altitude-symp…

I've been guiding and climbing at extreme altitude for over a decade and have heard many anecdotal 'solutions' for acclimatizing faster; with specific training, drugs, etc. When it comes down to it, the only way to acclimatize is to follow an acclimatization schedule, drink to your thirst and eat plenty of carbs. The link above provides professional opinions that are time tested and peer reviewed by the leading doctors in the field today.

From what I understand, the only way to acclimatize faster is to take Acetazolamide (Diamox). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceta…

Everything else, aspirin, extra water, Advil (ibuprofrin), hypo chambers, ginko biloba, etc., has not been proven to work in double blind clinical tests.

At the symposium, Dr. Peter Hacket recommended training in similar terrain to what you will be climbing at high altitude. That's based on the fact that exertion at altitude is a risk factor and the less you can exert yourself (because you trained for the specific terrain), the better you'll do. So...if your treking in rugged terrain with a big pack, go do that; if you're climbing ice at altitude, go do that, and so on...

I've run many high altitude courses in the Great Ranges and here's an example of the acclimatization schedule I use as a professional guide and have had great results with! (go to the bottom of the page):
expeditiontraining.org/inte…

Take your time, descend if symptoms don't get better and do your research before you go!

Good luck!

Aerili wrote:I remember some of the more recent research showed best outcomes when you train low and sleep high. Somewhat counter-intuitive and not always very practical. (darn!) I always feel like prophylactic ibuprofen intake (600-800 mg) at elevation helps me perform better and avoid altitude sickness.

In recent years, 2 studies have come out regarding ibuprofen as an effective prophylactic for AMS. Those studies are still be deliberated because only the 'symptoms' of AMS were reduced. However, the definitive symptom of AMS is a headache and we all know that ibuprofen can mask a headache. This may result in a masking of symptoms, not curing the problem.

Personally, I wouldn't want to mask indicator symptoms to such a deadly medical condition.

Just my 2 cents...

Josh Beckner wrote: In recent years, 2 studies have come out regarding ibuprofen as an effective prophylactic for AMS. Those studies are still be deliberated because only the 'symptoms' of AMS were reduced. However, the definitive symptom of AMS is a headache and we all know that ibuprofen can mask a headache. This may result in a masking of symptoms, not curing the problem. Personally, I wouldn't want to mask indicator symptoms to such a deadly medical condition. Just my 2 cents...

I haven't seen the second study, but I reviewed the first one and was unimpressed. The methadology was poor and the only symptom of AMS that the ibuprofen actually seemed to lessen was GI upset! Hard to believe as ibuprofen is known more for causing rather than relieving GI distress.

mark felber wrote:Lots of people use water bottles, and empty them for the descent to save wear and tear on the knees.

I've heard this strategy before, but there's a couple of things I don't get...

1) Is there any real data to back up the wear-and-tear argument, or is it an old wives' tale like "Squatting below parallel will destroy your knees"?

2) Minus food and fuel, you have to climb down with a full pack - why not start training light and adapt to the task?

I guess at some point it comes down to terrain, if you're training on something relatively long steep, then maybe, yeah, drop weight for the descent. But if it's moderate or you're doing laps up and down the bleachers at the local high school?

Rich,

It's just physics, the same amount of weight in your pack is going to put much, much more force on your joints as you go downhill. Try this experiment: Put 60 pounds in a pack, then walk up a flight of stairs. Turn around, walk back down. It should be glaringly obvious how much more strain the downhill leg puts on your knees.

As far as on a real route . . . "everything except food and fuel" is, well, a LOT lighter. Food and fuel is heavy! Anyway, I think it comes down to a pretty basic training tenet that can be summed up as "train like you compete, but only if you can do so in an ergonomic manner". No need be be unnecessarily hard on your body . . .

Rich Murray wrote:Is there any real data to back up the wear-and-tear argument

impact on joints:
For carefully incrementally trained progressive impact on knee and snkle joints causing osteoarthritis ... recent studies have offered lots of de-bunking evidence for the "wear and tear" theory of osteo-arthritis.

Apart from scientific studies, consider that if the "wear and tear" argument were true, runners (especially trail runners) would get obviously lots more osteoarthritis at obviously much younger ages than the non-running population -- but they don't.

My mountain-prep training routinely includes running down stairs two at a time carrying a 25 kg / 60 pound pack on my back. Of course I work up to that carefully incrementally over several weeks in my pre-season program.

Been doing it at least a decade. Nothing bad has happened to my knees or ankles.

Ken

P.S. I think a key problem is that hikers and climbers develop strong leg muscles from non-impact activities like bicycling and climbing (and water-weight-jettisoning) and weight-lifting. So they feel strong getting up to the top. Then they get knee and ankle injuries because they have not trained specifically progressively for impact on the descent.