Planning a rock climbing vacation this winter?

WDW4 wrote: My point is that the end result of filing and climbing are the same. I'm agreeing with you here.

No, you're not. These two things are not the same:

1) I take a few hours and properly cleans the route to produce an excellent climb that 100 climbers enjoy over the next three years.

2) You don't clean the route and it takes 100 painful ascents over three years to (possibly) reach the same state as #1.

So after three years I have 100 happy climbers, and you have how many?

One: you. Behold! WDW4 is ethical! And selfish.

John Byrnes wrote: No, you're not. These two things are not the same: 1) I take a few hours and properly cleans the route to produce an excellent climb that 100 climbers enjoy over the next three years. 2) You don't clean the route and it takes 100 painful ascents over three years to (possibly) reach the same state as #1. So after three years I have 100 happy climbers, and you have how many? One: you. Behold! WDW4 is ethical! And selfish.

You're right, I probably am selfish about a lot of things. No, the two things are clearly not the same in every respect, I should have been clearer in my meaning. You are undoubtedly a much better route developer than I am. We clearly practice different styles of climbing, and that is A-OK.

I could elaborate, but why bother? I think I'd just make you madder, which is not your fault. All the best in your endeavors. Peace out.

EDIT P.S. The area does look like a lot of fun!

John Byrnes wrote: No, you're not. These two things are not the same: 1) I take a few hours and properly cleans the route to produce an excellent climb that 100 climbers enjoy over the next three years. 2) You don't clean the route and it takes 100 painful ascents over three years to (possibly) reach the same state as #1. So after three years I have 100 happy climbers, and you have how many? One: you. Behold! WDW4 is ethical! And selfish.

quantity always trumps quality - right?

Oh snap haha eric

Ryan Williams wrote: Shit, I'll take you up on that offer! It won't be this winter... but maybe next! Would love to get my hands on some unclimbed limestone! I'll "comfortize" based on local ethics ;-) To all those wondering about this place, there is nothing like climbing near the sea, and if you've never climbed on featured limestone (none in the US), then you should check this place out!

Even though this is a photo of a photo, you get the idea of "unlimited" new route potential. The cliffs over the sea are 130-140' (39-42m) high.

John Byrnes wrote: I mention new route development in Support Brac Climbing, but it's not an invitation to just anyone. I'm not running a school on how to put up quality routes. I'll supply the ...and specific expertise. "Oh Grandma," said Little Red Riding Hood, "What a big ego you have!"

It sounds like you're the one with the ego buddy. It seems like you want everyone to come enjoy your new "gem" destination climbing spot.
All I was implying is that it is difficult for me to justify such a climbing trip when there is so few routes to climb. I'm not sure how that gives me a big ego.

It's great that all bolts placed are titanium glue-in's.

what happens when the ocean levels rise though? I want my routes that I put up to stand the test of time (global warming included) since having chosen to not reproduce my rock climbing routes will be the only way I will be immortal.

No sit starts and your first bolt is the anchorage for the belay boat. Nada deal.