Does anyone use 10.0+ ropes anymore??

kevin deweese wrote:I use: 10.5 and 10.2 60m for bigwalling (with a 10.2 200' static haul line) 9.6 70m for trad 0.0 0m for sport

I like your 0.0 minimalistic sport rope, fits well with the 7 gram biners on a 2 inch long dogbone. Otherwise there is just too much fat ass weight hauling down on that harness for sporties to carry anything more than maybe 18 ounces of total gear on their climbs. Onward to the world of 5.17d by 2015

What about a 70m 9.8 rope for ice climbing and only ice? I figure nobody will be falling on it... I hope!

Kirby1013 wrote:What about a 70m 9.8 rope for ice climbing and only ice? I figure nobody will be falling on it... I hope!

My biggest fear on ice is a chop of the rope by a tool...fatter is stronger, but then again ,a bigger target to hit with your tools. I'm staying thick and water reistant for my ice ropes for now,,no thin stuff for me.

I really enjoy climbing on thin ropes. I mostly climb on my 8.9 rope and there is several reasons for me.
- I don´t feel the rope when I´m climbing
- It clips effortlessly and smoothly
- It feeds easily
- It is light
- It is durable. The durability of a rope isn´t only determined by the diameter. It comes down to three components:
1. Construction: How is the sheath constructed? How compact and dense is the rope? These factors play a huge role. A really compact, well constructed and braided rope will also be durable.
2. The treatment of the rope can make a big difference in the longevity. For example, treated yarns have less friction in between each other. Therefore the rope doesn´t wear out as fast.
3. Diameter.

Simply saying: A thicker rope lasts longer than a thinner rope is wrong.
My friends and me mostly climb on thin ropes. To us, it is better.

folks ... theres a reason that gyms, guiding services and big wallers and other such high use, high abrasion users tend to use larger 10mm+ ropes ...

while there are other things that affect a ropes durability ... in terms of abrasion resistance to paraphrase Napoleon "god is on the side of thick ropes" ... a thicker shealth, or more accurately one that is more of the weight is more durable than a thinner one for high abrasion situations

what gets people confused is that there really is TWO types of "durability" that we look for in ropes ... abrasion resistance and resistance to repeated falls ...

the mammut folks talk about this in depth on steph davis blog ...


Rope Question #1:

Do ropes have different thicknesses of sheath, and why?

Dave:

First question might be why we have multiple ropes of the same diameter that outwardly seem “the same”—what’s the difference? The answer would be that we try to look at who is using our ropes—a beginner climber who is toproping a lot vs. a sport climber who is falling a lot on very overhanging routes vs. a trad climber who is climbing lots of granite cracks vs an ice climber—and design ropes that will give them the highest level of utility combined with light weight and durability.

Since each of the above mentioned climbers tend to ask different things of their ropes, and hence they may need very different propoerties in order to stand up to one form of abuse vs another. For instance, a sport climber who is projecting hard routes is taking a zillion falls that are all relatively short—that puts a huge amount of stress on one very small section of rope, and the rope simply loses its elastic properties there and goes flat. Contrast that to the trad climber who is falling much, much less, but is usually on terrain that is less than vertical—this subjects the rope much more to abrasion of the sheath. Then there’s the ice and alpine climber who virtually never falls, but is routinely dragging the rope over sharp edges, blocky terrain, getting it wet and drying it, etc.

If we build all of our ropes to make the sport climber happy—i.e. they hold a ton of test falls for their diameter—because we need to give up some elements of the rope in order to build a rope that can hold all those falls we might disappoint the other climbers who don’t need a rope to hold so many falls, they need different things from their ropes. One of the big differences between ropes will be how climbers wear it out—if they wear it out from falling a lot, or if they wear it out from abrasion on rough rock. Although there are other elements in play that we can use to affect these properties, one of the differences in construction we use that reflects these design priorities is the relative thicknesses of the core vs the sheath—we can make two 10mm ropes, one having a thin core and thick sheath, and the other having a thick core and thin sheath. All other things being equal, the rope with the thick core and thin sheath will hold more falls before going flat, but wear faster from abrasion; and vice versa.

For instance, our Genesis 8.5mm half ropes are designed for ice and alpine climbing. Climbers rarely fall in these situations but they do subject their ropes to incredible abrasion and they need them to be very cut-resistant. With these ropes we consider a high number of test falls held to be of relatively less importance, so we sacrifice the falls-held rating—which reflects to a large degree how long a rope will last under repeated hard falls—in order to build a rope that will be ultra-durable under very harsh abrasion conditions and will be more difficult to scrape through to the core. We do this in part by altering the tension the rope is braided under, the pattern of the braid, chemical treatments that are thermally applied during the heat-treating process, etc—but we also use a relatively thin core and a very thick sheath, because that helps the rope to be as durable as possible under these types of situations.

Some of our ultra-thin single ropes like the Serenity 8.9mm have a relatively thin sheath because even with all the tricks we can muster we still need a certain amount of core in order to pass the UIAA test for a single rope—in this case we use a thinner sheath to achieve a very low weight and thin diameter, but we do thins knowing that this is a very specialized rope that is only appropriate under very specific circumstances. In these cases they are used by very experienced climbers for hard sport climbs or alpine routes where they are willing to sacrifice a level of abrasion resistance in exchange for lighter weight—this is why we recommend that people do not use any of these very thin single ropes for workout climbing or toproping. People also need to recognize that even though these are single ropes, and even though the diameter is larger than our Genesis half ropes, under conditions where the main danger is cutting or abrasion the thicker rope might actually be LESS durable and have a lower safety margin.

People who are comparing two ropes of similar diameters can usually see this in the test results—Mammut publishes the % of each ropes weight that is sheath so that people can judge for themselves what rope they will be happiest with. If you fall a lot, choose a rope with a high fall rating; if you don’t fall that much then choose a ropes with a thicker sheath (and if the manufacturer doesn’t publish that info call them and ask for it!). If you climb both abrasive rock and you fall alot, then think about how you wore out your last rope—if it went flat 10 or 15 feet from the ends, then get the rope with the high fall rating for the size and if the rope just fuzzed up to the point it felt sketchy or fat or lost its dry treatment, then concentrate on a rope with a thick sheath and a compact weave.

highinfatuation.com/blog/st…

;)

I just have a 10.1 and a 10.2 the weight savings would not help me at the level I climb I dont push myself hard most of the time,I just like to get outside and enjoy myself. 10+ can be had dirt cheap these days.

Yes. Sometimes I use hexes, large tricams and climb entire pitches with passive pro. Am I ok?

I have more than one rope.

Rick Blair wrote:Yes. Sometimes I use hexes, large tricams and climb entire pitches with passive pro. Am I ok?

ok in my book.

Rick...I take my hexes out all the time and prefer passive gear as well!

As far as ropes, I typically use a 60m 10.2 for trad. I have a longer thinner rope I use sometimes for sport. I think the size and thickness of the rope you use should depend on what you plan to use it for. I often climb in Vedauwoo where the rock is rough (rope eater) and the pitches are short. A 10.2 diameter provides more durability and helps the rope last longer out there. However, if hard sport is your game or if you rarely climb rough slabs, then a thinner, longer rope could make more sense.

The whole reason for a smaller diameter rope is reduced weight...but thats not always the case(some 9.8's have identical wt/meter as a 10.0) and most differances are pretty incignificant.

Smaller diameter ropes are usually more expensive...

So in my opinion...

If you only have one rope, i guess cough up a little more dough and get a smaller rope.

if your like most clibers and have multiple ropes...you would only use your (more expensive) smaller ropes when you actually (need) them, like alpine climbing, going for that redpoint send after you've dialed in the hard stuff, or a near limit onsight...if this isn't the case, your prob just throwing away money.

bearbreeder wrote: then concentrate on a rope with a thick sheath and a compact weave. ;)

So looking around even Mammut doesn't publish this info so it's pretty funny that they said to ask for this, yet don't publish the info.

How does a manufacturer measure compact weave? How should a potential customer? If no rope in hand how do you tell? This just feels stiffer?

Funny enough this past weekend I had the pleasure of using the Sterling Sharma rasta colored velocity 9.8 rope and my velocity 9.8, theoretically the EXACT SAME ROPE... and they felt utterly and completely different. My rope that I've bitched plenty about, is absolutely HORRIBLE. You could practically cut it on your fingernail it feels like you could pull it apart with your fingers, and on its first day of use had a full blown core shot. THE SHARMA rope... the SAME rope... felt astonishingly completely different. Sturdy, firm, tight, durable, strong, all the things I'd want in a rope. So why the difference... I can only assume different pattern ropes even in the same line (velocity 9.8) have different weave tightness and thicknesses.

Morgan Patterson wrote: So looking around even Mammut doesn't publish this info so it's pretty funny that they said to ask for this, yet don't publish the info.

They do it for every rope of theirs right on their website in the "Details" section.



Mammut Infinity 9.5mm info

Beal does this clearly on their web site. Edelrid you have to dig a bit more but it's in their catalog.

awesome... thnx matt. So sheath is measured in % of width... what about the compact weave vs a non-compact weave? Is there an empirical means to meausure?

Not hatin', just jokin: LINK (blog post)

Morgan Patterson wrote:awesome... thnx matt. So sheath is measured in % of width... what about the compact weave vs a non-compact weave? Is there an empirical means to meausure?

I don't think that's a reported quality. A compact weave will be more durable than a loose weave. For more durability you also want to look into single pick weaves vs the more common double-pick weaves. Many of the new Edelweiss Perfom 3 ropes are single pick (my personal favs right now) the Beal Diablo Line is as well as some of the Tendon Ropes.

Mark Twight had a good write up of rope sheaths and durability etc in his Alpine Book - can't find my copy at the moment.

WDW4 wrote:Not hatin', just jokin: LINK (blog post)

That blog post rocks! My answer is always your answer in terms of weight. People will say you don't need a rain jacket or first aid or self rescue gear. I had one guy tell me, don't carry up that water bottle! That I should eat and drink before racking up at the bottom of the Apron one time. I replied I'm 6'3" 270.. Whats another few pounds going to matter.

Even still I want the cool bi pattern skinny special edition fancy pants high dollar rope to send that 5.7 project of mine.

ya thats what i was thinking about weave... u won't know until you're holding it and there's nothing documented to actually compare. I was looking at that pick (1 or 2 strand) as new criteria for my next rope after talking to the Bent Gate guys about my durability issues with Sterling. Maxim Glider has the single pick weave, they call it TWT.. looks real nice! Unfort, I'm in an area where there are no decent climbing stores with any inventory so actually getting a hand on any of these ropes is nearly impossible without actually buying it.

Kirby1013 wrote: That blog post rocks!...Even still I want the cool bi pattern skinny special edition fancy pants high dollar rope to send that 5.7 project of mine.

Thanks! Haha, I'm right there with you on that project.

Morgan Patterson wrote:ya thats what i was thing about weave... u won't know until you're holding it and these nothing documented to actually compare. I was looking at that pick (1 or 2 strand) as new criteria for my next rope after talking to the Bent Gate guys about my durability issues with Sterling. Maxim Glider has the single pick weave, they call it TWT.. looks real nice! Unfort, I'm in an area where there are no decent climbing stores with any inventory so actually getting a hand on any of these ropes is nearly impossible without actually buying it.

Right there with you. I have an old Maxim Glider that took a hell of a lot of abuse. I rocked Beals (with the improved DryCover) for a while but found them to be a "soft weave" - really nice handling but not as durable. I drank the cool aid and tried a Sterling Velocity 9.8mm and it's been my LEAST durable by far. Double Pick and soft Weave. I don't have enough mileage on the Edelweiss 9.8mm Curve yet to make a long-term comment on durability but in the outings on rough TX granite down here I've been impressed so far. My old Beal Ice Lines (single pick) also were work horses so I'm pretty sold on the single pick claims.

EDIT: Interesting discovery while googling. The "Unicore" process (sheath and core bonded together) that Beal is marketing a lot right now doesn't seem to be an exclusive process. Edwelweis and PMI both have ropes (statics right now) also incorporating the Unicore feature...