.

.

"Bolts? What are those?"
This is the description of this section of the forum (right there, under the "Trad climbing" title) :)

verticon wrote:"Bolts? What are those?" This is the description of this section of the forum (right there, under the "Trad climbing" title) :)

You need to learn what traditional climbing is, and what "Trad" means. Yes, it says what you mentioned in the title. It’s a pun, look at the rest. Nice effort at trying to be a dick and looking like an ass.

Vagenious: Bolt replacement is an honorable pursuit. I have updated a fair share of 1/4' button heads as well. If you are the one that took the time to paint the bolts atop of Crimson that was a nice touch. As for post 2005 routes that are ill equipped I vote to re-equip and or chop. Everyone wants an FA these days and will put up trash to claim one. That's not an acceptable reason to damage the rock and aesthetics of a beautiful area.

Ryan Kempf wrote:That's not an acceptable reason to damage the rock and aesthetics of a beautiful area.

Well, bolts do just that. Man up and climb on gear if you really care about the rock.

If someone is putting up shit bolts post 2005, they deserve to be publicly shamed and stripped of any rights they have as the FAist.

If you're placing 1/4" bolts in sandstone and don't return in a year to replace it, I say you've lost the FA.

I think you are well within your right either completely chop the route and leave it or put the good bolts where you want and claim the route as your own. If the shit bolter makes a claim, you can give him an asterisk*

• Balsh Aver originally explored this line in 2005 and left some dangerous hardware in situ. The route was re-equipped, completed, and free climbed by Tuggin Nuts in 2013.

agree with nicelegs, although i would like to reduce it from a year down to something more like a month.

verticon wrote: Well, bolts do just that. Man up and climb on gear if you really care about the rock.

Hi, Verticon. Some types of rock are too soft for repeated gear placements. Bolts are usually placed for belay/rappel stations or on the face where rock is way too soft or cracks are too small for gear (again, rock is too soft to hold small gear placements) - the area that's being discussed here is a traditional climbing area on soft sandstone. I looked at your website - really cool, what kind of rock is that?

VaGenius wrote: but I'm wondering what reactions other purveyors of off the beaten track climbs have to situations like this and what the perceived role of the ASCA is with regard to first ascentionists putting up recent routes with crap hardware and when and if there is cause to replace this ....crap.

If you're going to bolt a route, you have to be a craftsman. Take a trip to the Red River Gorge and notice that there are some climbs that have 3 or 4 adjacent bolt holes from the replacement efforts over the past decade or two, and the newest bolt still isn't stainless.

I have a little bit more tolerance for bolts hand-drilled on the lead, but even then, they ought to be retro'd to be made safe if they're 1/4 inch or otherwise unsafe. Venus doesn't matter: off-the-beaten-track or at Main Cliff @ Rumney, the fixed gear should be safe if it has been installed in the last decade. Otherwise it was a shoddy job.

verticon wrote: Well, bolts do just that. Man up and climb on gear if you really care about the rock.

doligo wrote:Hi, Verticon. Some types of rock are too soft for repeated gear placements. Bolts are usually placed for belay/rappel stations or on the face where rock is way too soft or cracks are too small for gear (again, rock is too soft to hold small gear placements) - the area that's being discussed here is a traditional climbing area on soft sandstone.

Thanks for explaining it so I didn't have to.

Pretty sure this is common practice in many areas in Europe. If you, as the FAist, put in jingus hardware the local climbing group will basically come in, replace your gear and "disavow" that the first guy had anything to do with the route. I think you'll also be given a lot of grief for doing a shoddy job.

If you're putting in mank in this day and age (or do a terrible bolting job, even with ok gear) you loose the FA "rights" in my opinion.

Large groups like the ASCA or ARI probably need to steer clear of these "Grey" areas though. Doing so keeps them above all the headaches. Perhaps someday we'll be more stringent in enforcing certain minimum standards for hardware ala the Euros but I don't think we're there yet.

I agree with you Eva, 100%. This resource we use, rock, is utilized in a limited space. Each time you place one of those old bolts, you know someone will have to replace it... or simply let the route (and perhaps a climber) die an aged death. Put in good stuff and get 4-10 times the life out of it.

And please, don't bring up money. If all that was available was stainless steel, you'd use stainless steel. The cost of stainless versus galvanized may keep a person from doing dozens of new routes rather than half a dozen good ones, but its worth it.

And for what its worth, the UIAA has a standard for bolts. I believe its 10mm or larger in diameter, and 70mm or more in length. Stainless steel of 304 grade or better. Of course, the USA has not adopted that standard as no one speaks for our climbing community collectively. Its sad and embarrassing that Fixe makes and sells non stainless bolts purely for the American market... that stuff isn't sold in Europe anymore. Its like we are a developing country, given the bad pesticides and old , dated antibiotics. Since no on speaks for us, we ought to do it on our own personal volition.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:And please, don't bring up money. If all that was available was stainless steel, you'd use stainless steel. The cost of stainless versus galvanized may keep a person from doing dozens of new routes rather than half a dozen good ones, but its worth it.

Yes!!! I think the light shines much more highly on an FA who does a good job cleaning the route of rubbish rock, thoughtfully placing the bolts (gee, can a 5'2" person clip this without eating sh*t?), and putting in hardware that will last. Do you put up fewer routes? Yup. But what you leave behind will worth more than the value of three times as many mediocre rigs.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote: Its sad and embarrassing that Fixe makes and sells non stainless bolts purely for the American market... that stuff isn't sold in Europe anymore. Since no on speaks for us, we ought to do it on our own personal volition.

Amen.

Funny thing is, They were likely very proud to use those Leepers...Fancying themselves some sort of Layton Kor, if only he was harder....

doligo wrote: Hi, Verticon. Some types of rock are too soft for repeated gear placements. Bolts are usually placed for belay/rappel stations or on the face where rock is way too soft or cracks are too small for gear (again, rock is too soft to hold small gear placements) - the area that's being discussed here is a traditional climbing area on soft sandstone. I looked at your website - really cool, what kind of rock is that?

Hi Doligo. My first comment was intended to be a joke (a smart arse one, I agree, but still a joke), but someone's got butt-hurt and I continued with a sarcasm... I apologize for that.

On the other hand, different climbing cultures have different definitions for trad climbing, so... to each his own :)

For the site, if you refer to my blog, the routes in the pictures are my trad FAs (and a few sport routes) in some limestone gorges in Romania. All the trad routes are entirely gear protected and have bolted rapel stations, so... maybe I should man up and use hand placed pro ?! :)))

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote: And for what its worth, the UIAA has a standard for bolts. I believe its 10mm or larger in diameter, and 70mm or more in length. Stainless steel of 304 grade or better. Of course, the USA has not adopted that standard as no one speaks for our climbing community collectively. Its sad and embarrassing that Fixe makes and sells non stainless bolts purely for the American market... that stuff isn't sold in Europe anymore. Its like we are a developing country, given the bad pesticides and old , dated antibiotics. Since no on speaks for us, we ought to do it on our own personal volition.

Sam, correct me if I'm wrong (very possible) but I THINK the UIAA doesn't spec out exact dimensions, merely materials and strengths the bolts need to meet. I think UIAA says 20kN AXIAL for a rock anchor and then specs the various types of stainless steel that are allowed. Jim Titt gets into this a bit on his web site when he notes that he's tested out 4mm stock (8mm shaft) glue ins but they just miss the minimum standards. I think he also touched upon the challenges of a "standard bolt" due to the extreme variability of the rock at the AF Fixed Anchor Conference? He noted that you can get away with a much shorter anchor in bullet granite than you can in limestone. I think the 10mm x 70mm "standard" simply comes from the fact that that size will normally hold to UIAA specs in typical limestone.

I was going off memory of what Jim said at the meeting last year. I thought my specs were it as some bolts, like the Petzl longlife, were discontinued due to being too short. I may be wrong, but I thought the standard was 10 mm X70 and 304 grade stainless. Some countries have higher standards than the UIAA... I think Germany does. I may be quoting them.

VaGenius - my comment was intended to highlight the irony...something along the lines of all frat boys loving "Animal House" and never getting that the joke's on them....

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:Its sad and embarrassing that Fixe makes and sells non stainless bolts purely for the American market... that stuff isn't sold in Europe anymore.

As of when? I was at the Fixe-Faders plant in Spain in December of 2012 and they were making plenty of zinc-plated bolts and hangers. The local gear shops stocked boxes and boxes of them as well. I also saw zinc-plated, newly-placed bolts all over the place in the Costa Blanca and Lelada (sp?). I even saw zinc-plated hangers on routes right next to the ocean (genius).

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:I was going off memory of what Jim said at the meeting last year. I thought my specs were it as some bolts, like the Petzl longlife, were discontinued due to being too short. I may be wrong, but I thought the standard was 10 mm X70 and 304 grade stainless. Some countries have higher standards than the UIAA... I think Germany does. I may be quoting them.

It´s simple, the standard for bolts in Europe is EN959 (this is the legal requirement for sale of rock anchors for climbing.
Briefly:-
Any material allowed with a suitability and lifespan expectation declaration. The previous standard had a material requirement.
Glue-ins- 70mm deep.
Bolt-ins- installed depth 5X diameter.
Radial 25kN
Axial 15kN

The UIAA safety label (optional).
Material requirement as the old EN959 (304 and up).
Depths same as EN959 (bolts must anyway be certified to EN959 to get the UIAA safety label).
Radial 25kN
Axial 20kN

An 8mm 304/316 wedge bolt will not conform to either on strength grounds and will also pull out of the standard test block which is middle soft in rock terms.

There are no seperate country standards any more since they were incorporated into the European Standard.