Setting up C4's like the DMM's?

@Ryan: Not sure yet, I might try it out today with a few of my pieces to get an idea for myself.

@Coldfinger: Ok makes sense. Might give that a try.

I have some C4s as well as Trango flex cams with the extendable sling. To be honest, the extension only gives you several extra inches, and I still end up putting something else on them.

One of my partners racks up like you do. It's too much clutter for me,but different strokes...

I will point out that he racks using the biner clipped to the cam, and not the one at the end...unless you like tripping on stuff.

Daniel Evans wrote:I was not saying I EXTEND(24") my pro all the time, I simply throw an alpine draw on 95% of my pieces (6" extension approx.) because I feel the slings that come sewn on the C4's are too short for my liking.

A tripled 24" runner = 8" or so + a biner (3" or so)=12" without a racking biner. If you want to extend 6" or so, and every cam gets extended this distance, replace your racking biner with a FULL (2 biners w/ dogbone) sport draw. Way less clutter. Just be sure to clip the bolt side biner as your racking biner.
-Mackley
Ps. Over the shoulder runners have been somewhat of a standard since looong before cams ever needed extension.

Russ Walling wrote:I'm thinking goofy idea from the get-go, but.... Why not have some slings sewn into the units PAS style? You could get two slings sewn in there and could use the extension at whatever length you want. It gives you the added plus of one biner per unit and no extension biner to get loaded funny over an edge if you are extending out around the edge of a crack or shelf.

BD says you shouldnt have extendable slings sewn to the C4s as they are not designed for it, Alvaro above mentioned it initially, apparently it can cause the thumb loops to collapse and compromise the strength

Daniel Evans wrote:I usually keep a few slings around my shoulder but I'm hesitant to put all of them there because let's say I sling them in a way where I must free my right hand to get them off my neck, but my right hand is jamming what then?

Use a QD (for short extevtion), or a tripled runner off your harness.
Triples in BD? Assuming you own C4 #3-.5, C3#2-00, and a full set of X4, that would be around 15 or more runners and biners, + any alpine draws you carry to extend wires. Sounds like a lot, given most climbers carry less than 10 runners usually including a couple 48s.
Also a point that nobody has brought up;
If your concern is pumping out on a move and falling while spending the time and energy to extend, try
1. Place pro
2. Clip rope to pro (protecting against a pumped out whipper)
3. Extend pro desired length and clip rope below where you first clipped the piece
4. Unclip from higher (racking) biner
5. Climb on
This sounds like an involved process until put into practice.
-Mackley

Lets be honest - you're climbing similar grades as me, you should easily be able to do what Mackley stated above. I do it if I feel pumped and worried about making a placement (shove a cam in and clip it - then decide to extend or keep climbing), but most of the time you can find a better stance to place from on these grades.

And I've also noticed " I'll clip just the racking biner and pull the move past and watch it pull itself up & perpendicular inside the crack. " happening to me, which is why I'll runner some cams that I don't want to have a chance of moving as I climb past.

Russ Walling wrote:no extension biner to get loaded funny over an edge if you are extending out around the edge of a crack or shelf.

A runner basket ( not girth) hitched through the sling on the cam solves this problem.

Matt N wrote:Lets be honest - you're climbing similar grades as me, you should easily be able to do what Mackley stated above.

Ya I understand. I'm in the process right now of trying to push to the next higher grade in my trad game, but feel this is something I need to figure out before I do.

I normally carry 10 alpine draws clipped to my harness and 2 48" slings around my shoulder. I'm thinking I will heed Mackley's advice and stick to the set up I have.

Sort of realizing there's really no good way to do this with all my cams without adding unnecessary bulk and weight. We'll see.

Thanks for the great feedback guys.

Many good points here, a few comments:

One of the main benefits of extendable slings is the savings in weight and clutter factor.

The suggested rig doesn't really save much weight (just one biner), and will in fact ADD weight as each cam would have to have that setup, and then still more slings and draws for passive/fixed gear and belay anchors. I suspect you will arrive at the top of a pitch with quite a few extra slings and biners. This also applies to the clutter factor.

As for clutter, especially on longer pitches, having a lot of unnecessary gear not only complicates reaching for and placing gear, but it can also affect your ability to move easily, especially in dihedrals, slots, offwidths and chimneys. Sometimes EVERYTHING has to be on one side, and you need a simple rack to make that work.

I would add that many times all that is needed is a regular quickdraw and NOT an extendo sling. Add to this the fumbling around that extending and clipping a loose sling (even if is NOT extended) brings, ESPECIALLY when climbing a strenuous section (off fingers, fists) where one hand HAS to stay jammed.

If you are bumping or leapfrogging pieces due to a short rack, my experience is that the regular Camalot sling is perfect.

Greg J wrote: BD says you shouldnt have extendable slings sewn to the C4s as they are not designed for it, Alvaro above mentioned it initially, apparently it can cause the thumb loops to collapse and compromise the strength

Only b/c it's the thin dyneema. Russ' set up uses the same thickness nylon, so it elegantly solves that problem.

Overall, I like your idea, Russ. I may have to try that on one of my metolius cams! It's nice to to not run it through the cam cable loop.

What length of loops are you using? 4" length? Slightly longer than a normal cam slings length? 5 or 6" might be ideal.

Yeah I actually really like Russ's idea.

Guess the only downside is tripled up nylon is going to be pretty bulky. I might stick with what I've got for now and consider doing something like that down the road when I get my slings resewn.

As for Russ' idea.....

For one I would hate to see what an Indian Creek racks worth of those would feel like on my waist.

For another, you lose the benefit of Dyneema in terms of bulk, weight and water resistance (alpine, long trad).

For a third there's the expense.

For a fourth, you generally don't need full extension on EVERY cam placement, and I like having the option of using extendos loose so they can be used on nuts, pins, bolts or even the belay anchor.

FINALLY..... I am highly skeptical of the benefits in terms of usability of most DIY gear (answering a problem that doesn't exist) but especially as you are doing something that HAS NOT GONE THROUGH RIGOROUS ENGINEERING AND TESTING like OEM gear does.

Russ a quick point here and would like your input.

Can you only clip the 1st and 3rd loops (as clipping the second would change the orientation of the biner)?

Was thinking that might cause more friction in the system, increase the risk of the gate hitting the rock and opening or even encouraging the rope to unclip.

Thanks for your posts!

Russ Walling wrote: You can clip any loop you like. Biner orientation fears are mostly hype except for some certain situations. If you place a cam in a horizontal, your biner orientation changed too, and on a short sling might cause some binding depending on the placement. I would guess with the added length of the POS comes added flexibility and the orientation would not be something I would worry about. Sure, it is changed and all that, but really.... there are worse things to worry about.

Yeah like what it costs! (shipping both ways too)

Oh and thanks for the response!

I would add that one of the subtle benefits of the DMM Dragon stem piece design is that it has that added flexibilty too.

Have noticed that the WC/BD slings can bind and grab the cable loop (especially the WC Helium ).

IMHO the "flexibilty" benefit applies much more to nylon than dyneema.

Daniel Evans wrote: 2 48" slings around my shoulder.

It's a little Olof topic, and you probably already know this, but I feel its worth mentioning.
48's can be carried doubled, over the shoulder with no biner. But if you drape them over your shoulder, and clip the loose ends together, under the opposite arm with a biner, one side can be un clipped and the sling removed without lifting over your head.
Obvious? Maybe, but it took someone showing me before I started doing it, or even noticed for that matter.
Have fun. Climb safe.
-Mackley

Russ Walling wrote: Completely separate issue and not related to what I have posted or the workaround for the OP

Ah sorry I did misread your original post. You are talking about adding a sewn sling onto the existing sling and not through the original loop. That is a good idea. And I like your cam testing box, got all the essentials I see.

Greg J wrote: Ah sorry I did misread your original post. You are talking about adding a sewn sling onto the existing sling and not through the original loop. That is a good idea. And I like your cam testing box, got all the essentials I see.

Except the slings in that box all look PERFECTLY FINE.

[quote]As for Russ' idea.....
For one I would hate to see what an Indian Creek racks worth of those would feel like on my waist.

For another, you lose the benefit of Dyneema in terms of bulk, weight and water resistance (alpine, long trad).

For a third there's the expense.

For a fourth, you generally don't need full extension on EVERY cam placement, and I like having the option of using extendos loose so they can be used on nuts, pins, bolts or even the belay anchor. FINALLY..... I am highly skeptical of the benefits in terms of usability of most DIY gear (answering a problem that doesn't exist) but especially as you are doing something that HAS NOT GONE THROUGH RIGOROUS ENGINEERING AND TESTING like OEM gear does.
[/quote]

1. You wouldnt have that many of these, that is not their purpose. Long multipitch trad/alpine routes are.

2. A. There is no reason you couldn't do this out of dyneema. In fact, metolius and many other cams have already gone to dyneema. BD doesn't with their design for their own reasons, but almost every other manufacturer has gone to dyneema so no problem in many cases.
B. You actually cut your weight by one biner, plus you can carry less tripled draws, probably half to 2/3 less total quantity. That is a huge savings right there.

3. Expense is really no different than buying a sling of equal length, when you have outworn this.

4. Less clutter, and less runners. The runners that you do have you save for nuts, since you no longer need them on cams.

Your turn!