Setting up C4's like the DMM's?

So my rack consists of the BD C4's, C3's and X4's. One thing I've noticed lately while leading is that I put an alpine draw (shorty) on 95% of my cam placements. It's something I like doing because I feel better about them not walking out. However, this results in me fiddling around with trying to clip my draw to the runner on the cam placed deep inside the crack which wastes time and some times gets me pumped out.

A buddy of mine own's a set of the DMM cams with the extendable slings built into the stem of the cam itself to mitigate that issue. It had me thinking about trying to do that with my C4's.

So anyway, here's the setup I came up with which seems like it would work fairly well. Just means I'd have to buy more 24" slings. Has anyone ever tried this set up or know if BD will resew the slings like such?

In the pictures below, I would still use the racking biner to clip the cam to my harness, but once I place the pro, the sling is already clipped to the racking biner and ready to be extended if needed:

The problem with this is that you end up buying a 24" sling for every cam that you have, as opposed to just clipping a sling to the cams that you place. This can also add up to a bit of added weight and clutter on your harness.

I know that BD does not recommend sewing extendable slings onto their cams. There's a video somewhere out there showing this scenario collapsing the thumb loop of the cam and compromising its strength.

If I'm climbing something that I know has a desperate placement that I will want to extend I will rack that cam with a preclipped sling, but it seems silly to do that to every cam that you own...

I don't think theres anything wrong with it, but it is added gear/bulk/weight for every piece that you don't place or need to extend. Also more expensive, but I don't see anything ridiculously bad going on.

If I were to do this, I'd be dropping 6 hotwire biners from my rack and replacing that weight with 6 more 24" slings. I think it would work itself out weight wise. I'm just worried that I'm going to have a tangled mess of slings and cams when I reach for a piece and regret buying the extra slings. As of now I don't think I'm going to do it for that very reason.

Just curious if anyone had tried this out at all and how it worked for them.

Daniel Evans wrote:It's something I like doing because I feel better about them not walking out. However, this results in me fiddling around with trying to clip my draw to the runner on the cam placed deep inside the crack which wastes time and some times gets me pumped out.

Curious where this fear is coming from...I find that a lot of people extend pieces because of some wacky belief that cams will walk if they don't. Not saying that you should never extend pieces, I'm just saying that it may not be necessary to do it all (or even most) of the time.

Yeah. If I was at Indian Creek leading a parallel crack or something straight up and down I wouldn't stress too much about slings, but I've just noticed on multiple occasions while leading what I think is a pretty straight forward route (Dark Shadows at Red Rocks for example) I'll clip just the racking biner and pull the move past and watch it pull itself up & perpendicular inside the crack.

Just a habit I have now. I like to do it when I can.

I have a few of my metolius cams set up like that. It saves weight from the biners, which is nice. Metolius is set up for that width of sling, so no need to worry. BD is not/does not recommend it, as a previous poster recommended, although I think that video was actually a doubled sling set up, not a tripled one like you are showing here.

It does make racking them a bit more cluster-y, but I think it's awesome if you are doing stuff that only requires 1 or 1 and a few doubles for a rack of cams.

If you do this, make sure you get your lengths dialed. Tripled slings hang cams much lower when racked. I think 20" is about right. 24" is WAY too long.

Do not use that mammut width of runner... what is it, 8mm? That stuff could slice the cable, possibly.

Cheers.

Ryan Nevius wrote: Curious where this fear is coming from...I find that a lot of people extend pieces because of some wacky belief that cams will walk if they don't. Not saying that you should never extend pieces, I'm just saying that it may not be necessary to do it all (or even most) of the time.

Lots of people are climbing full 70m pitches on a single rope. Without slings, it's heinous rope drag. Sure, for splitters, no big deal. More often than naught I need to extend.

Ryan Nevius wrote: Curious where this fear is coming from...I find that a lot of people extend pieces because of some wacky belief that cams will walk if they don't. Not saying that you should never extend pieces, I'm just saying that it may not be necessary to do it all (or even most) of the time.

theres enough cases out there of cams walking, often due to non-extended pieces ...

on straight up cracks its less of an issue ... though even in the very straight cracks here in squamish ive seen pieces walk enough to make the placements questionable without extension ... extending also tends to keep the rope out of lower angle cracks

walking cams, even if they dont pull, can walk into the crack resulting in stuck cams

not to mention on non-straight crack, not extending the piece can result in vicious drag, and greater fall forces ... not to mention the possibility of an internal zipper

at the higher levels people tend not to extend the pieces simply because for hard cragging climbs the falls and lines are much cleaner ...

but on more moderate climbers you can often tell new climbers by the Z patterns they are making on the rock with their rope ...

one of the main reasons for new climbers pulling gear IMO isnt just because of their gear placement skills .... but their rope path management ones

if you look through the accident reports on MP alone, youll see accidents due to internal zippers, cams walking in fairly straight cracks and all that other fun stuff that a simple extension can often help solve

for the OP .... just buy dragons ... they save the weight of a short quickdraw ... on hard redpoints i carry them pre-extended anyways

;)

Spri wrote: Lots of people are climbing full 70m pitches on a single rope. Without slings, it's heinous rope drag. Sure, for splitters, no big deal. More often than naught I need to extend.

Myself included. I didn't say to leave the slings behind, I just mentioned that people often extend for the wrong reason. Preventing rope drag is a great reason to extend.

bearbreeder wrote:but on more moderate climbers you can often tell new climbers by the Z patterns they are making on the rock with their rope ... one of the main reasons for new climbers pulling gear IMO isnt just because of their gear placement skills .... but their rope path management ones ;)

Great points. I agree with everything you said here. But, like you implied, extending pieces is part of the art (much like placing the pieces in the first place).

More often than not, I can tell a less experienced climber when I see every piece extended on every pitch of every climb. The Z-pattern is often in addition to that.

Ryan Nevius wrote: Great points. I agree with everything you said here. But, like you implied, extending pieces is part of the art (much like placing the pieces in the first place). More often than not, I can tell a less experienced climber when I see every piece extended on every pitch of every climb. The Z-pattern is often in addition to that.

i extend almost every piece i can on moderate climbs unless its a ledge fall scenario ...

ive seen enough cams walk that even if its not an issue in holding, it can well be an issue for the second cleaning ...

on harder redpoints i tend not to extend in the cams at the crux, but you bet ill be extending the ones at the good stances unless im really worried about the weight

on moderate multi due to drag and rope length, one should be extending many of the pieces ayways

generally you want as LITTLE bends and friction in the rope as possible ... simply because both INCREASE the force on the gear ... at times substantially ...



now there are times when you probably shouldnt extend ... like above ledges, near the ground, when yr pumped as hell on a hard redpoint, etc ...

but on moderate climbs which tend to have more friction and wander more ... i recommend it as a default

heres my placing nuts and extending dragon cams on a nice moderate

course im a total intraweb lazy gumbay who climb 5.4 online all day =P



;)

Just carry a few runners over the shoulder and clip a (1) biner to each. If a placement needs extension clip the runner to the racking biner and the rope to the biner already on the runner.
Carry a few tripled as draws for extending wires etc.
-Mackley.

Spri wrote:Do not use that mammut width of runner... what is it, 8mm? That stuff could slice the cable, possibly.

Look at the lower photo again. Duh.

I would say that in practice this is going to be a BIG PITA!

First off, the BD cams were NOT (to my knowledge) designed for a spectra/dyneema sling. THAT is why DMM has the aluminum thumb piece. So I have major safety concerns here; it seems the manufacturer makes a choice and you should stick with that.

These will be hanging very low on your harness and will swing around and be much more likely to catch on the rock and perhaps even tangle up.

Also, I think it will be harder to grab and place these cleanly, especially if you are pumped, in an awkward position or doing delicate moves.

Plus you don't always need to extend a sling or put a draw on a cam anyway.

One more thing is these look like they will extend LONGER than the DMM do, so I am not sure whether you will need/like that.

Finally, the clipping biner will be quite loose on an open sling and therefore harder to clip. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD don't fix that biner with tape or a rubber biner! That is dangerous.

I'd say this is a very bad idea, but why not just mix in a few DMM Dragon cams into your rack?

I guess I should clarify.

I am not considering hitching any slings to the stems of my C4's nor am I getting them resewn that way.

And I was not saying I EXTEND(24") my pro all the time, I simply throw an alpine draw on 95% of my pieces (6" extension approx.) because I feel the slings that come sewn on the C4's are too short for my liking.

Also the cams are not going to hang too low on my harness because I would still use the racking biner on the original sling to rack my cams. So the hang length would be the same as anyone elses C4's.

The only difference of doing it this way is I would have a alpine draw per cam on my harness which could potentially become a jumbled mess. I was simply asking if anyone had tried this before and how they liked it.

Thanks.

Well I think you still will have a mess.

And this: you will have to carry an extended sling for EACH cam, which will add a ton of weight, $$ and tangle factor.

I usually keep gear on the waist loops and draws/extendable slings on a shoulder sling. Makes it MUCH easier to place gear and also much easier to move pieces to the front of my harness at rests when I can see what I will need on the upcoming crack.

That little housekeeping trick (moving the next few pieces up front) makes things WAY easier.

And me buying Dragons isn't an option right now. I already have triples of BD brands so I'd prefer not to buy any more cams. Was just trying to come up with a way to adapt with what I've got.

I usually keep a few slings around my shoulder but I'm hesitant to put all of them there because let's say I sling them in a way where I must free my right hand to get them off my neck, but my right hand is jamming what then?

So what's your decision? It sounds like you've made up your mind. Personal preference varies per person. It sounds like the only actual drawback listed is clutter.

No man, I have draws and extendable slings (shortened like in your picture) clipped to a shoulder GEAR sling.

I don't always extend the trad draws, so it works well.

Then I throw a couple of slings OVER that, so I can get to those once into the belay or on a ledge.

Being right handed, the draws and extendos are hanging to my right, the shoulder slings to my left, that way there is no tangle there.