Trango Cinch Use

Recently bought a Trango Cinch, was confused by various instructional .pdfs and videos, and decided to make a "User Friendly" user guide for my own use as I practice using the Cinch.

These tips are based on the current (post 2012) recommendations from Trango, which suggest attaching the device differently than before, to facilitate feeding rope to a leading climber.

Note that these instructions are not intended to replace quality climbing instruction, experience, and the manufacturer guidelines.

(Removed images)

EDIT: Updated page 3 to clarify text for "quick feed".
EDIT: Removed images to eliminate the possibility of future misuse.

Jake Jones wrote: I'm not sure why they changed the configuration in the first place, but I suspect it is not simply to make feeding slack to a leader easier,

I called Trango with that same question, and they said the only reason for the change was to make the feed easier. They also specifically said both methods are safe. So it sounds like either way will work, so long as it works for you.

I used to use a Cinch. I don't any more. I have a GriGri 2 and find it to be a superior device in every way. I will not call the Cinch dangerous. I will say that there is almost no margin for error in the technique. To put it another way, it is easy to make a mistake with the Cinch, and there are a lot of threads with the words "cinch" and "injury" in the title. YMMV. Be safe.

D.Buffum wrote:I think you should be very concerned about liability from posting instructions like this on a public forum. You may or may not be legally liable for injuries resulting from the use of these instructions (or misuse), but that might not some some idjit from ruining your life with a lawsuit.

Wise thoughts, that occurred to me as well. After a reasonable amount of time I'll delete the photos. Probably would never be an issue, but won't hurt anything.

NC Rock Climber wrote:I used to use a Cinch. I don't any more. I have a GriGri 2 and find it to be a superior device in every way. I will not call the Cinch dangerous. I will say that there is almost no margin for error in the technique. To put it another way, it is easy to make a mistake with the Cinch, and there are a lot of threads with the words "cinch" and "injury" in the title. YMMV. Be safe.

put "Grigri" "dropped" see how that goes too... any device can sketch if you use it wrong.

Jake, I agree. It is possible to misuse any device. I just think that the allowable margin for error is much smaller on the Cinch. Add that to my belief that the GriGri is easier to use, and I see zero reason to buy a Cinch. This is just my opinion. The Cinch has a loyal following, so there are a lot of others that feel differently.

I am not a lawyer, but I think you would not face legal exposure from posting climbing instructions on the web. Else every online guidebook, video about how to build anchors, posts on MP about cordalettes, etc etc, would be exposed. The relevant legal doctrine is assumption of risk: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assum… . Basically, climbing is intrinsically dangerous, and you don't assume a duty of care to some random person reading your instructions. This is different from e.g. a person working as a guide, who does have a direct relationship with his clients and a duty of care to them.

Jake Jones wrote:I don't quite understand why Trango did this. I still configure my setup the "original" way. with the climber end essentially coming out of the top.

After looking into the accidents with the Cinch and doing a lot of testing the DAV (German Alpine Association) went out on a limb by declaring the original manufacturers instructions and method to be dangerous and recommended the upside down method. When Trango changed ownership the instructions were changed to reflect this

alpenverein.de/DAV-Services…

Under;- Panorama 3 2010 Sicherheitsforschung: Halbautomaten

I have been using the Cinch for years and when I heard about these dropped climbers I tried to recreate it on my own. Without actually holding it open I can't make it feed though. If I pinch it along the whole body or have the top hand slam it down, then I can create a mis-belay. But I can do the same thing with a GriGri.

D.Buffum wrote:I think you should be very concerned about liability from posting instructions like this on a public forum. You may or may not be legally liable for injuries resulting from the use of these instructions (or misuse), but that might not some some idjit from ruining your life with a lawsuit.

LOL! "you may or may not". Written like a true blood sucker D!

rocknice2 wrote:I have been using the Cinch for years and when I heard about these dropped climbers I tried to recreate it on my own. Without actually holding it open I can't make it feed though. If I pinch it along the whole body or have the top hand slam it down, then I can create a mis-belay. But I can do the same thing with a GriGri.

But the grigri won't wear out and fail to actually break a fall when used properly like the cinch...

Morgan Patterson wrote: But the grigri won't wear out and fail to actually break a fall when used properly like the cinch...

Pretty false unless you can show a Cinch failing while being used correctly.

only time i've had the rope slip was when my thumb was on the cam while feeding quickly, I let go and it caught. I've caught 30' falls on 9.5mm ropes on a well used Cinch.

Taking the word of people who have poor technique blaming the device is not an accurate way to gather data. catching a fall takes a second or less.. it is really easy to talk yourself into thinking that it wasn't your fault.

blaming a piece of gear for poor technique is a stupid argument. People crash cars on a daily basis, everyone should walk instead.

every piece of gear wears out. biners wear out, gri gris will wear out, ATC's wear out. replace when the wear becomes

I don't agree with your assertion Jake.

I have been climbing since 1996. In that time I have seen some completely worn out gri gris. One with the spring broken. Another that was worn to the point that there was a hole in the aluminum. Both of these caught falls solidly every time.

Also worth mentioning is the large amount of gri-gris that are many years old and deeply worn and every one of these stops a fall. They even work on ropes well under the recommended size. In fact most of them out there are these old deeply worn models and they all work great.

Now to the Cinch. Mine was grooved to the point that it had a constant creep even on a 10.7 crusty old line. It was about a year and a half old. It then started flaking apart due to saltwater corrosion on the aluminum and I retired it. My grigri that is a decade older and went through the same environment is still fine.

I'm glad you've had good luck with a Cinch. To say that it's safe because you have had good luck with it isn't really a sound argument. I know terrible drivers that have never crashed. It happens.

For me, I truly believe that the Cinch is a device that works perfect until it doesn't, then it works perfect again. It is not like a gri gri or ATC that will work perfect unless you do something wrong.

Ultimately, the Cinch vs. the world turns into the same argument as keeping pit bulls with children. It won't get resolved and sadly, Trango will keep their flawed device on the market. Make your own decision but choosing the Cinch is the wrong decision.

I belay with it in a way that is not on either of the instruction sheets. I could never get the hang of the fingers on the hole method and i definitely don't like belaying like an ATC palms up. perhaps that is what is helping me. my hands aren't on the device when i'm not feeding rope.

i don't really buy the Pit argument either.. when a dog is born they have no idea what they are.. it is what they learn from the owner or their surroundings. Did you know that Rotweillers were originally a herding dog?

Jim Titt wrote:http://www.alpenverein.de/DAV-Services/Panorama-Magazin/Panorama-Archiv/?article10204=2313 Under;- Panorama 3 2010 Sicherheitsforschung: Halbautomaten

Thanks for posting this, I think I got the gist of the article. I wish my German were better (re: included more than 25 vocab words). I need a Bergmeister to translate the relevant sections for me.

Relevant article: AAI Blog Post

nicelegs wrote: For me, I truly believe that the Cinch is a device that works perfect until it doesn't, then it works perfect again. It is not like a gri gri or ATC that will work perfect unless you do something wrong.

I don't think this mindset is productive. If you don't feel comfortable with a device, for sure don't use it, but it is necessary to identify the variables that cause a device to fail, especially because those variables can be corrected. I think, by far, the biggest variable with any device is the person using it.

That said, my one qualm with the Cinch is that, by design, there is no good option to put a bend in the rope to stop a fall, putting all the responsibility for braking on the camming action of the device.

mountainproject.com/v/belay…

we have went through all this before ...

included the translate german DAV quotes ...

zzzzzzzzz

;)

Jake Jones wrote: The major difference is that with a GriGri, the user can wrap the rope around the rounded metal lip to create more of a bend and thus more friction. So what is the major difference? Materials? Does the steel in the Cinch wear faster? It is super difficult though when I've never seen any imperical evidence of my own to suggest that this is the case, and just throw away a device that has worked beautifully.

The GriGri inherently has much more friction, it already has a bend w/o the cam engaged. The extra bend you are talking about doesn't do that much more. The camming action on a GriGri is distributed over a wider surface area than a Cinch, and in additional to the higher passive fricion, it'll last much longer. I think your reasoning on not to retire the Cinch is quite flawed: It's a safety device, you shouldn't need to experience a malfunction personally to retire it, because the consequence is too severe. If we all retired ropes, harnesses, etc until we experienced a malfunction personally, we'd all die prematurely. What makes a belay device any different?

nicelegs wrote:I don't agree with your assertion Jake. I have been climbing since 1996. In that time I have seen some completely worn out gri gris. One with the spring broken. Another that was worn to the point that there was a hole in the aluminum. Both of these caught falls solidly every time. Also worth mentioning is the large amount of gri-gris that are many years old and deeply worn and every one of these stops a fall. They even work on ropes well under the recommended size. In fact most of them out there are these old deeply worn models and they all work great.

I'll add my own story:
Once at a gym I heard the gym manager say that they had the Gri Gri 1s since the gym opened and on constant top rope duty for 10 years and they still worked like new. That's a lot of ropes that they went through during that time. Meanwhile, there are lots of reports of how the Cinch needs to be replaced after a few years of much less use. Just from a cost perspective, the Gri Gri is a much better deal, even if it is $20 more initially.

KevinK wrote: I'll add my own story: Once at a gym I heard the gym manager say that they had the Gri Gri 1s since the gym opened and on constant top rope duty for 10 years and they still worked like new. That's a lot of ropes that they went through during that time. Meanwhile, there are lots of reports of how the Cinch needs to be replaced after a few years of much less use. Just from a cost perspective, the Gri Gri is a much better deal, even if it is $20 more initially.

top roping in a clean room on ropes that get replaced fairly regularly isn't a very good comparison to normal use outdoors in various conditions.

They keep nylon draws hanging on lead routes for many years too but that doesn't mean you should outdoors when UV and weather hit them all day.

Wear is situational. gear that gets used 200 days a year in gritty areas is going to wear much faster than 100 days per year where it's mostly leaves and hard dirt. there is also no set limit on when you should replace a Cinch or a Grigri... you have to decide when it is worn out.