Hardshell vs. Softshell
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I saw a simular post about a year ago, so I did go back to see if there were any posts. I have a more specific question than what was addressed in that post though. |
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I can't comment on the new materials, as I don't have much experience. I've worn a decent hard shell once, on a really wet, snowy day skiing. I bought the hard shell for two uses, skiing in late season rain/snow mix and dripping waterfall ice climbing. |
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I personally love softshells, I have a Stoic hooded softshell that I use in basically anything but a blizzard. Even in pretty heavy rain it keeps me dry and I dont sweat. If I need something more like more face coverage or in a heavy rain or snow Ill throw a hardshell on top of that (some burton shell that I use skiing) and dont have any problems with sweat. |
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I'm in New England, which is much wetter than out west, and I only ever bring out the hardshell for balls-out downpours. Softshells do everything else so well, especially the 30 mph mist we get here in the Whites (with similar experiences in the Cascades). You will not find a hard shell as breathable as a softshell, and a softshell with windstopper is nearly as windproof. I really think that unless it's super cold, you are going to sweat while working in a hardshell. |
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Some of the new materials do indeed breathe really well. eVent, Neoshell, Power Shield Pro, Vaporshell (from Stoic: CHEAP!), and the new Toray Dermizax NX, Gore Pro, and the eVent/Cuben hybrid material from Cubic Tech all get really high ratings for water vapor transmission. I think a shell like this might be decent enough to replace a wind shell, rain shell, and soft shell. The material's breathability specs are ridiculous . Higher than anything else I've seen independently tested. Twice as high as most. For its cost and weight, you'd need a very special use to choose anything else. I have this jacket, and it is awesome, though I suggest having the sleeves made an inch longer than standard for reaching up while climbing. |
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I personally dont buy into all the hype about breathability. I have rab event jackets that are more breathable than goretex by a bit-but not much to really matter when really working hard. i also have some powershield pro which in my opinion has the best breathability for the level of waterproofness. I owned a neoshell jacket-sold it because I liked the powershield pro better for breathability. Neoshell didnt feel to much different than a windsopper jacket. |
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Air permeable stuff (Neoshell, eVent, etc) IS more breathable. It's a noticeable difference. But that's not your problem. |
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If you sweat a lot (which I do), I think all of the goretex vs. event vs. neoshell debate is moot: you're going to sweat. And if you sweat a lot, you may want to focus more on venting (pit zips) than on fabric. I've been wearing an OR Ferrosi Hoodie for mtn biking, trail running, climbing, etc. It's super-comfy, breathes *incredibly* well and keeps the breeze at bay. But if it rains hard, you'll need to throw on a hard shell. |
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Thanks for all the good info. Really helpful. To put a finer scope on the question: The windstopper softshell I have has suited me fine. Doubling up with a hardshell over top gets sweaty. Since the windstopper is membrane and I'm fine with it. I could go to one of the more breatheable hardshells (with pit zips) and get the added benefit of being totally waterproof, for close to the same breatheability. Then leave the extra rain jacket at home. Does that sound about right? Of course there's the extra cost of getting another jacket, which I'd have to think about. |
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Ryan Williams wrote:That Windstopper softshell you have is no more breathable than your Marmot hardshell. Windstopper is just Gore Proshell without taped seams. So when you put a hardshell over a Windstopper, it's like wearing two waterpeoofs. Get a softshell without a membrane if you want to use it as a midlayer. It will still block enough wind to keep you comfy but breath way better than Windstopper.Most important post in this thread. Windstopper material is not softshell! It is stretch woven material lined with a waterproof-breathable membrane so yeah, wearing windstopper is the same as wearing gore-tex, just without the added protection of taped seams. I've personally had great success with stretch woven shells, namely the OR Ferrosi and the Marmot Tempo. With adequate layering underneath, the tempo is my go to winter jacket and the ferrosi is summer alpine and shoulder season. Both are surprisingly wind resistant and breath 1000x better than gore/windstopper/eVent. I do carry a Gore Paclite shell just in case, but it has never once left the bottom of my pack. |
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Action Suit. |
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Allred wrote:Action Suit. Look it up in Mark Twight's book. It will change your world.+1 |
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I mountaineer / ice climb in the Eastern Sierra. My go to shell is my Patagonia super alpine shell. Every company has their version and they all use the Goretex Pro material. I love my hardshell since it keeps wind and cold out. |
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hardhsells are a thing of the past. |
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My new favorite piece: rab vapour rise. Offered in several different cuts to what fits your needs best. I really like it. |
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superkick wrote:hardhsells are a thing of the past. twights action suit is still a great concept but the choices he offers are no longer relevant.i actually think that hardshells are the way of the FUTURE basically weve done all we can with softshells ... for all purposes and intents they are just a piece of tightly woven fabric with DWR ... to make them "better" all weve done is add membranes which is a dead end street IMO ... witness the failure of the kishtwar jacket and powershield pro ... with hardshells the fabric technology gets "better" every year ... there the latest and greatest goretex, neoshell, etc ... a decades or two down the road i predict that most $$$$ technical jackets will a very softshell like hardshell ;) |
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^^^ like neoshell? |
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superkick wrote:hardhsells are a thing of the past. twights action suit is still a great concept but the choices he offers are no longer relevant.Care to elaborate with details and preferably facts? I'm always up for some education on material tech. |
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I disagree that Polartec Power Shield Pro is a failure. Personally, I think Power Shield Pro is the best material on the market for alpine use. For its weight, breathability and 98% waterproofness, its pretty hard to beat. |
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The future may not so much be a debate of hardshell versus softshell, as some of the new technology coming out should change the way we traditionally have looked at breathability and water protection. Neoshell is the first generation nanofiber technology and is resulting in improved breathability. This is not a microporous membrane, but instead thousands of fibers less that one micron in diameter, that allow vapor to pass and water drops not to pass. Other companies are getting into the game whether it is with polyurethane fibers (Neoshell) or something else, so stay tuned. |
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randy88fj62 wrote: I'm always up for some education on material tech.I just woke up, and this gives me morning wood. Some of this will be wrong, as I'm not an industry insider, and I'm not a materials scientist. I'm just a nerd who irresponsibly spends nearly every bit of money he gets on travel and gear for climbing and skiing. And it's been at least 10 years since reading Twight's book. And I'm in school at age 33, it's 8:30am on a Sunday during Fall Break, and I've got little else to do. Twight was sort of against the idea of baselayer-insulation-hardshell that defined most of the thought behind outdoors layering systems at the time. The system got hot when you were active, and the hard shells of the time were poorly breathable by today's standards. This resulted in individuals getting hot and sweaty when they moved, and their sweat made them cold as hell when they stopped to belay. I believe Twight advocated a base layer followed by a superlight wind/soft shell (what he called the action suit) without much insulation at all. The main insulation layer was to be used only when stopped at belays, thrown over everything, and it would preferably be a synthetic puff piece like the DAS Parka in an attempt to not just warm but pull moisture from the inner layers due to humidity gradients or something. In the 5 or 6 years after the book came out, popular choices for a shell layer included the Patagonia Houdini and Ready Mix jackets. The DAS got popular for a while. Soon after, though, a new idea of action suit emerged: the DWR puff jacket. I think this came about due to a combination of people wanting a little more warmth plus the same level of simplicity as the old windshell. In practice, they were wearing a bit of extra insulation anyway, and people realized that most of the time puffy insulation is lighter, warmer, and more packable than fleece. If your light puff layer has a hood and a DWR, then why are you bothering with the soft/wind shell? An early example of a lightly insulated wind shell was the Marmot Driclime. Back in the early-mid 2000s, I was pining for a hooded stretchy version of the Driclime. Enter the Arcteryx Atom LT. I posted one of the earlier micro reviews I am aware of on the Atom LT here, and I'm nerdily proud of recognizing its potential: mountainproject.com/v/best-… This was a jacket I was excited about, and over the next couple of years it became a sort of standard piece for climbing. Clones that followed include the Rab Xenon, the new BD Access Hybrid, the TNF Zephyrus, and the new OR Halogen. These are jackets that are really breathable, but are still pretty warm. But all this time, both shell materials and puff insulations have evolved. The lines between hard shell and soft shell have blurred, and the advantages and disadvantages of down/synthetic insulation have become less discrete. Not eliminated yet, but closer from where they used to be. On the shell front, since Twight's book, several new fabrics have come out. From what I've heard, when Gore-tex was first released, it was extremely breathable. It used an e-PTFE layer to block rain that also allowed water vapor to escape. And it worked. The problem was, the material soaked up oil, and eventually contamination from your skin and the environment would foul the jacket, and it would stop working. So Gore added a PU layer to keep oil away from the e-PTFE layer. That worked to protect the membrane. But that PU layer drastically reduced the breathability of the jacket and led us eventually to Twight's layering advice. Many other fabrics came on the market that were PU-based, and I won't go into them all. None were very breathable, as far as I'm concerned. Eventually, there was one fabric that really started to change things, in my opinion, and it was eVent. eVent is an e-PTFE membrane without a PU layer. The membrane itself is somehow made oleophobic, so the PU is unnecessary. So it breathes very well. eVent made people realize that they didn't have to choose between Gore's expensive, not-really-that-breathable fabric and all its clones and the not-so-water-resistant soft shells of the time. eVent kind of kicked off the waterproof fabric war that continues today. Gore started coming out with incremental changes in their fabric like Gore-Tex XCR and Gore-Tex Pro Shell. Both still had the PU layer. GE, the maker of eVent, started allowing companies to use their membrane technology in their own fabrics. This led to Mountain Hardwear's Dry Q Elite. Polartec got into the game hard by developing a technology that allowed their material to be waterproof and breathable, but it additionally allowed some air exchange to take place. The air exchange reduced humidity more than fabric water vapor transfer could ever hope to. The trade off is that the fabric might be less wind resistant and colder. The early released version of this was Power Shield Pro, used in the Patagonia Knifeblade. Power Shield Pro is waterproof to 5000mm, but that degrades by about half by use and over about 20 washings. Polartec already had a soft shell fabric called Power Shield, and people mistakenly thought Pro was an incremental step from the old material. This led it be being sort of ignored for a while. Polartec used the same tech to develop Neoshell, a 10,000mm waterproof version that would degrade to 5000mm through washing. Neoshell was seen as a bigger deal, probably helped by the new name. Power Shield Pro should have been called Neoshell Pro or something, as it is the same tech, is more breathable and is still basically waterproof. GE responded to the air permeable thing with eVent DVL, used in the Westcomb Focus. Gore has this year come out with Gore-Tex Pro (not to be confused with Gore-Tex Pro Shell), a membrane without the PU layer. It apparently might use an additional layer of e-PTFE to act as a sacrificial layer for oil, though I'm not sure about that. All of these shell materials rely on a Durable Water Repellent coating (DWR) to keep water beading up on the outer surface. If it doesn't bead up, then a continuous layer of water can form on the surface of the jacket meaning effectively zero breathability. You might think the jacket is now leaking, and it might be, but it's just as likely that your sweat is starting to collect inside. In the world of insulations, things have gotten lighter and drier. Synthetic puff insulation comes in a few basic flavors: short staple and long filament. Short staple tends to puff and compress more at the expense of possibly wearing out faster. Examples are Primaloft One, Arc' Coreloft, and MHW Thermic Micro. Long filament generally lasts longer, but it doesn't compress as well. Examples are Polarguard Delta, Primaloft Infinity, Climashield Apex, and Arc' Thermatek. All the various insulations have clo values that sort of define how warm they are. Primaloft One has been regarded as a premier fabric due to, among other things, its high clo. However, other synthetic fabrics may have higher clo values, but the data isn't available, and some fabrics may have lower clo values but other advantages that can't be ignored. The North Face now has Thermoball insulation and Mountain Hardwear has Thermal Q Elite, both of which are rumored to have very high clo values. Primaloft has Synergy, used in the newer DAS. It has a lower clo than One, but it breathes better, and it may help that humidity gradient Twight was so concerned about. There are also some stretchy puff insulations coming out. One of the downsides of synthetic puffy insulations has been that because of the way most are constructed, they require tightly woven fabric on both sides to keep them held together. This reduces breathability. And the insulations themselves are not very breathable. Polartec's new Alpha insulation is meant to address this. It is an open weave long-filament insulation that can apparently stand alone without being inside a shell and liner. This would allow the inner lining of a jacket to be made of a more open fabric like fishnet mesh or something. It should breath extremely well. The downside would be that it wouldn't be as warm. This is now in the Rab Strata, the Marmot Isotherm/Alpha, and the Westcomb Tango. I think one of these jackets looks the most promising as a good replacement for the Arc' Atom. Fit would determine which one. Down cannot be beat for warmth to weight, but when it gets wet it doesn't keep you warm much at all compared to synthetic insulations. Down warmth depends on the quantity of down, puffiness of the down, and the total volume it occupies. One ounce of 650 fill down will occupy 650 cubic inches of space. One ounce of 900 fill down will occupy 900 cubic inches of space. So 900 fill down isn't exactly lighter or warmer than 650 fill down. It just takes less of it to fill up a jacket or sleeping bag to gain the same loft. So a jacket or sleeping bag with higher fill power down can have fewer ounces of down than it would otherwise have, and it is lighter for the same warmth. There may be a downside to increased fill power down. Prolite Gear has done some videos sort of mythbusting down. One of their many conclusions was that higher fill power down tends to be more apt to collapse under increased humidity. All the fill power numbers published by manufacturers reference the down's specs in basically 0% humidity. The implication is that 900 fill down might not be as lofty as 750 fill down in certain real world conditions. But loft isn't everything. Over on BackpackingLight, there has been lab testing that shows that compressed down maintains most of its clo value even with significant (about 50%) compression. It's the fill power and quantity of down that is more important than inches of loft. This bodes well for the idea of overstuffing baffles for increased warmth without as much bulk. The past couple years have seen newer technologies that allow down fibers to be made individually water resistant. Opinions are mixed on whether it actually makes much of a difference (see Prolite Gear's excellent series of videos on this), but manufacturers have been quick to implement the tech as most of these processes are cheap with few known downsides. Examples are Downtek, Dridown, Quix Down, and Encapsil. Some of these processes actually increase the loft of the down substantially. For example, Encapsil takes 800 fill natural down up to about 1000 fill. Word is, even higher fills may be possible using naturally higher starter fill. I'm not gonna start on baselayer tech. Front-line choices include stuff from Craft (Active Extreme & Concept), Power Dry High Efficiency, wool, and, if you wanna be really cutting edge, you'd experiment with fishnet. God damn, I just spent an hour nerding it up and making the Internet hate me. I tend to err on the side of light, even if it means being a little sweaty. The Zpacks Cuben jacket is two layers of eVent surrounding a dyneema core layer. It breathes very well. Better than the Feathered Friends Jackorack (Pertex Endurance UL) I used to have. I went for a jog in a 65 degree drizzle several weeks ago, and I didn't feel terrible. It weighs 4.5 ounces, and the material is strong as hell. And it's $225, putting it at the low-mid range for shells in general. The Atom is still an incredible jacket. The new Rab Strata and Westcomb Tango look like they might be really nice. I want to get rid of layers. Most layering pieces have liners and shells resulting in hindered breathability and increased weight at every step in the system. I want to see a hooded jacket with a Polartec Power Dry High Efficiency inner liner, 60-80 gram Polartec Alpha insulation, a Polartec Power Shield Pro shell, and an integrated Power Dry balaclava (similar to the Arc' Fortrez/Konseal). One jacket, one layer, one zipper, designed smartly so i don't get wind/snow infiltration at the waist between the jacket and pants. Just that with a belay jacket in the pack. No more layers for temps between 10F and 65F. Done right, it would be breathable enough, warm enough, and waterproof enough for just about anyone in that range. |