Climbing on doubles
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Question 1: Considering buying a set of doubles. What is the best size to get? Question 2: When belaying a 3rd up multi pitch would climbing on 2 ropes be the best way to belay up the 2nd and 3rd while having them climb at the same time 20 or so feet apart? |
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Do you want doubles or twins? Twins you clip together to each piece of pro. With doubles you clip each rope to seperate pieces of gear. |
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Jay Eggleston wrote:Do you want doubles or twins? Twins you clip together to each piece of pro. With doubles you clip each rope to seperate pieces of gear.Doubles |
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Jon asked: Question 1: Considering buying a set of twins. What is the best size to get? Question 2: When belaying a 3rd up multi pitch would climbing on 2 ropes be the best way to belay up the 2nd and 3rd while having them climb at the same time 20 or so feet apart? |
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I use 8.4 sterling a here in the SE. Holds up well to the granite and gneiss. I have 70m lengths but I commonly like to link pitches. Should be fine with 60s |
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The Stoned Master wrote:Jon asked: Question 1: Considering buying a set of twins. What is the best size to get? Question 2: When belaying a 3rd up multi pitch would climbing on 2 ropes be the best way to belay up the 2nd and 3rd while having them climb at the same time 20 or so feet apart? Q1 = no universal best size. my experience tells me most want in the 8mm range, I have 9.1s and enjoy them and dont mind the "extra weight" of having twins/doubles in the thicker 9mm range. Q2 = they can simul climb (if you can manage the belay safely!) or one at a time, clipping and unclipping and cleaning as they go. where you going to climb with these two seconds? terrain and situation dictates what technique (simul climb or not, etc).So if size is not an issue could you climb on 2 different sizes? Reason I ask I have a 9.7 and 9.8. I'm guessing this would be heavy but is there any other con. |
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The correct term nowadays for ropes that are clipped singly is half ropes. Twin ropes are clipped together. Double ropes refers to both. |
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Mammut Genesis 8.5 are the benchmark over here. You can get skinnier for weight saving or fatter for durability, but the 8.5 seems to be the most common compromise. |
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I like the 60m Monster 7.8mm twin/half from Metolius. You can use them as either. I prefer to use them as twin, because most of the SE climbing doesn't wander too much. They have held up for over 3 years of regular use with minor visible wear. So don't worry about the durability from the smaller diameter. The combined weight of the ropes is like carrying a single 10mm. Going somewhere like Laurel Knob or Red Rocks, the light weight will pay off on those longer hikes. At RR, the ropes are easily blown around, but almost any cord will be in the desert wind. Skinny ropes do have a tendency to tangle around each other, which is about the only downside to climbing on twin/half's, but it is mostly on rappel. |
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All good info-- |
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Jon Powell wrote: So if size is not an issue could you climb on 2 different sizes? Reason I ask I have a 9.7 and 9.8. I'm guessing this would be heavy but is there any other con.There will be a tremendous rope drag, when belaying with modern plaquette devices. The older Petzl Reverso would probably be better. If the seconds are simul-climbing, it would be a PITA. Also, if there is any chance of one of your seconds falling and needing some slack (traverses, overhangs), it is best that they climb one after another. |
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Jon Powell wrote: So if size is not an issue could you climb on 2 different sizes? Reason I ask I have a 9.7 and 9.8. I'm guessing this would be heavy but is there any other con.Yes, you can do this, but it's going to be a beast to deal with two single-ropes at the belay. It's also a bad habit to get in to using gear in a way that the manufacturer has not tested and certified. rgold wrote:The correct term nowadays for ropes that are clipped singly is half ropes. Twin ropes are clipped together. Double ropes refers to both.I must have missed that memo. I'd be willing to stand corrected, but the current edition of Freedom Of The Hills clearly describes twin vs. double rope technique on page 272. Double ropes and half-ropes refer to the same thing, but 'double' never refers to twins. Incidentally, this is also the page where the mountaineers outline that you can climb on two singles using double rope technique. To the OP: if you don't have this book, buy it and read all of it! |
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Correct. Double == Half but Twin != Double. |
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Also have a look at the Edelweiss Extrem |
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Bill Duncan wrote:Also have a look at the Edelweiss Extrem Very nice handling, and sturdy, edge-resistant construction.Do you have the extrem and love it? I saw one on sale for $90 recently and thought about getting it. I even thought about using it as an ultralight single... yeah, yeah, I know I'm gunna die. |
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Edelweiss makes a single 8.7, so not sure why you'd go with a fatter, heavier rope that's only half-rated...unless it's just for glacier or something. Mammut's also doing an 8.7 single...they're both 51g/m, if i remember correctly. |
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coppolillo wrote:... you're using it correctly--i.e., never clipping single-rated or half-rated ropes into the same piece if you're taking a belay on both strands; always clipping twins into all your pieces and always taking a belay on both, etc....I believe it's kosher to clip half ropes into the same piece. I seem to remember a thread a not long ago that resulted in an email to mammut about the question. Either way, I do it (when it makes sense). |
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drock3 wrote: I believe it's kosher to clip half ropes into the same piece. I seem to remember a thread a not long ago that resulted in an email to mammut about the question. Either way, I do it (when it makes sense).If you clip two ropes into separate pieces, then subsequently clip both into one shared piece, the difference in rope drag characteristics and the length of rope out can cause sheath burns from the different rates of stretch. Similarly, if the ropes are rated as doubles but not as twins and you experience a high fall factor on to a single piece clipped by both strands, then you may exceed the maximum allowed impact force and break your back. I'd be interested to read the Mammut email and understand the context of the question more fully. Absent that explanation, I recommend that you don't clip two half-ropes into the same piece, ever. |
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coppolillo wrote:Edelweiss makes a single 8.7, so not sure why you'd go with a fatter, heavier rope that's only half-rated...unless it's just for glacier or something. Mammut's also doing an 8.7 single...they're both 51g/m, if i remember correctly.Another thing I like to look at is the rope's sheath percentage. Ropes like the 8.7 Serenity (38% sheath), achieve their certification as a single rope while staying so thin by having enough core strands to hold the force of a fall, but keep the sheath thinner, and therefore more susceptible to abrasive rock. The 8.5 Mammut Genesis (49% sheath), even though its thinner over all, will have a thicker, tougher sheath. It depends what the intended use of the rope(s) is/are. If catching repeated falls is the main concern, maybe a set of thin singles is the answer. If the ropes will be used for alpine climbing where falls are rarer but rope durability is of higher concern, a different rope may be better. |
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Mammut says that basically all of their ropes rated as halfs meet the certification for use as twins but for marketing purposes, they were just labeled as one or the other. |
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I found the thread where the idea of using both twin and half rope technique in a single pitch is considered. For your reference: |