Climbing on doubles

Question 1: Considering buying a set of doubles. What is the best size to get? Question 2: When belaying a 3rd up multi pitch would climbing on 2 ropes be the best way to belay up the 2nd and 3rd while having them climb at the same time 20 or so feet apart?

Do you want doubles or twins? Twins you clip together to each piece of pro. With doubles you clip each rope to seperate pieces of gear.

Jay Eggleston wrote:Do you want doubles or twins? Twins you clip together to each piece of pro. With doubles you clip each rope to seperate pieces of gear.

Doubles

Jon asked: Question 1: Considering buying a set of twins. What is the best size to get? Question 2: When belaying a 3rd up multi pitch would climbing on 2 ropes be the best way to belay up the 2nd and 3rd while having them climb at the same time 20 or so feet apart?

Q1 = no universal best size. my experience tells me most want in the 8mm range, I have 9.1s and enjoy them and dont mind the "extra weight" of having twins/doubles in the thicker 9mm range.

Q2 = they can simul climb (if you can manage the belay safely!) or one at a time, clipping and unclipping and cleaning as they go.

where you going to climb with these two seconds? terrain and situation dictates what technique (simul climb or not, etc).

I use 8.4 sterling a here in the SE. Holds up well to the granite and gneiss. I have 70m lengths but I commonly like to link pitches. Should be fine with 60s

I've also climbed on some 7.8 that were awesome but for everyday is go thicker, especially if your expecting regular falling

The Stoned Master wrote:Jon asked: Question 1: Considering buying a set of twins. What is the best size to get? Question 2: When belaying a 3rd up multi pitch would climbing on 2 ropes be the best way to belay up the 2nd and 3rd while having them climb at the same time 20 or so feet apart? Q1 = no universal best size. my experience tells me most want in the 8mm range, I have 9.1s and enjoy them and dont mind the "extra weight" of having twins/doubles in the thicker 9mm range. Q2 = they can simul climb (if you can manage the belay safely!) or one at a time, clipping and unclipping and cleaning as they go. where you going to climb with these two seconds? terrain and situation dictates what technique (simul climb or not, etc).

So if size is not an issue could you climb on 2 different sizes? Reason I ask I have a 9.7 and 9.8. I'm guessing this would be heavy but is there any other con.

The correct term nowadays for ropes that are clipped singly is half ropes. Twin ropes are clipped together. Double ropes refers to both.

I think the sweet spot for reasonable burliness and reasonable weight for half ropes is in the mid-8mm range. The smaller 8's (and now even high 7's) are lighter and so are good for alpine and remote settings where multiple falls are not expected. Some people find the smaller diameters more tangle-prone, and care has to be taken with them to use a belay device that will supply enough friction for serious falls and rappelling.

Two 70mm ropes are heavy and I'm totally unconvinced about the utility of the extra length. Maybe for alpine ice. I think the all-around utility length is 60m. That's good for 200 foot rappels.

Having two seconds follow simultaneously, one on each strand of a pair of half ropes, is by now a standard practice. The leader has to be thoughtful about clipping if the route isn't straight up so that one of the seconds isn't exposed to a swinging fall. Sometimes, the leading second can do some re-clipping of the following second's rope in order to eliminate such problems.

Mammut Genesis 8.5 are the benchmark over here. You can get skinnier for weight saving or fatter for durability, but the 8.5 seems to be the most common compromise.

If you can safely belay two seconds at the same time (using a reverso/guide or off your harness) then it's by far the quickest way. You can leave it up to them how much space they want to leave, but it does depend on the route!

I like the 60m Monster 7.8mm twin/half from Metolius. You can use them as either. I prefer to use them as twin, because most of the SE climbing doesn't wander too much. They have held up for over 3 years of regular use with minor visible wear. So don't worry about the durability from the smaller diameter. The combined weight of the ropes is like carrying a single 10mm. Going somewhere like Laurel Knob or Red Rocks, the light weight will pay off on those longer hikes. At RR, the ropes are easily blown around, but almost any cord will be in the desert wind. Skinny ropes do have a tendency to tangle around each other, which is about the only downside to climbing on twin/half's, but it is mostly on rappel.

All good info--

one thing to keep in mind, if you will be belaying two followers regularly, then dropping below 8.5 might not be the best idea.

Mammut and Edelrid now make single ropes that are 8.7mm, too, just as an FYI. i have the new Serenity 8.7 and so far, so good--handles really well, lightweight....

maybe your set-up should be a 9.2 single (Mammut Revelation is GREAT!), then get one of the 8.7s? then you've got two singles you could use on their own when you want, instead of a set of doubles...

good luck, dude! RC

Jon Powell wrote: So if size is not an issue could you climb on 2 different sizes? Reason I ask I have a 9.7 and 9.8. I'm guessing this would be heavy but is there any other con.

There will be a tremendous rope drag, when belaying with modern plaquette devices. The older Petzl Reverso would probably be better. If the seconds are simul-climbing, it would be a PITA.

Also, if there is any chance of one of your seconds falling and needing some slack (traverses, overhangs), it is best that they climb one after another.

Jon Powell wrote: So if size is not an issue could you climb on 2 different sizes? Reason I ask I have a 9.7 and 9.8. I'm guessing this would be heavy but is there any other con.

Yes, you can do this, but it's going to be a beast to deal with two single-ropes at the belay. It's also a bad habit to get in to using gear in a way that the manufacturer has not tested and certified.

rgold wrote:The correct term nowadays for ropes that are clipped singly is half ropes. Twin ropes are clipped together. Double ropes refers to both.

I must have missed that memo. I'd be willing to stand corrected, but the current edition of Freedom Of The Hills clearly describes twin vs. double rope technique on page 272. Double ropes and half-ropes refer to the same thing, but 'double' never refers to twins.

Incidentally, this is also the page where the mountaineers outline that you can climb on two singles using double rope technique. To the OP: if you don't have this book, buy it and read all of it!

Correct. Double == Half but Twin != Double.

Also have a look at the Edelweiss Extrem
Very nice handling, and sturdy, edge-resistant construction.

Bill Duncan wrote:Also have a look at the Edelweiss Extrem Very nice handling, and sturdy, edge-resistant construction.

Do you have the extrem and love it? I saw one on sale for $90 recently and thought about getting it. I even thought about using it as an ultralight single... yeah, yeah, I know I'm gunna die.

Edelweiss makes a single 8.7, so not sure why you'd go with a fatter, heavier rope that's only half-rated...unless it's just for glacier or something. Mammut's also doing an 8.7 single...they're both 51g/m, if i remember correctly.

and Jon--just make sure whatever system you go with, you're using it correctly--i.e., never clipping single-rated or half-rated ropes into the same piece if you're taking a belay on both strands; always clipping twins into all your pieces and always taking a belay on both, etc....

the Mammut Serenity and Edelweiss super-skinnies are also cool because they're rated for single, half, and twin usage....giving you even more flexibility. not sure on the Beal Joker 9.1, but just got to use one of those for a day and it handled really well, much nicer than the older model....

good luck, jefe.

coppolillo wrote:... you're using it correctly--i.e., never clipping single-rated or half-rated ropes into the same piece if you're taking a belay on both strands; always clipping twins into all your pieces and always taking a belay on both, etc....

I believe it's kosher to clip half ropes into the same piece. I seem to remember a thread a not long ago that resulted in an email to mammut about the question.

Either way, I do it (when it makes sense).

drock3 wrote: I believe it's kosher to clip half ropes into the same piece. I seem to remember a thread a not long ago that resulted in an email to mammut about the question. Either way, I do it (when it makes sense).

If you clip two ropes into separate pieces, then subsequently clip both into one shared piece, the difference in rope drag characteristics and the length of rope out can cause sheath burns from the different rates of stretch.

Similarly, if the ropes are rated as doubles but not as twins and you experience a high fall factor on to a single piece clipped by both strands, then you may exceed the maximum allowed impact force and break your back.

I'd be interested to read the Mammut email and understand the context of the question more fully. Absent that explanation, I recommend that you don't clip two half-ropes into the same piece, ever.

coppolillo wrote:Edelweiss makes a single 8.7, so not sure why you'd go with a fatter, heavier rope that's only half-rated...unless it's just for glacier or something. Mammut's also doing an 8.7 single...they're both 51g/m, if i remember correctly.

Another thing I like to look at is the rope's sheath percentage. Ropes like the 8.7 Serenity (38% sheath), achieve their certification as a single rope while staying so thin by having enough core strands to hold the force of a fall, but keep the sheath thinner, and therefore more susceptible to abrasive rock. The 8.5 Mammut Genesis (49% sheath), even though its thinner over all, will have a thicker, tougher sheath. It depends what the intended use of the rope(s) is/are. If catching repeated falls is the main concern, maybe a set of thin singles is the answer. If the ropes will be used for alpine climbing where falls are rarer but rope durability is of higher concern, a different rope may be better.

Mammut says that basically all of their ropes rated as halfs meet the certification for use as twins but for marketing purposes, they were just labeled as one or the other.

See an excerpt from the first comment here:

"All of Mammuts half ropes will also pass the twin rope test"..."Speaking only for Mammut, we generally don't certify our ropes to more than one standard because there is a very real concern that people make assumptions about a rope based on the fact that it is marketed differently, that often don’t really hold true."

This comment seems to be particular for past years. You might notice that in the last product year or so, all their twin ropes are rated for half use. You have to read the actual product description and test results to see this...sometimes only the twin symbol is printed.

I would also like to relate the particular situation I have noticed twin / half dual certification being useful. When I am bringing up two followers on easy routes, they generally do not have the belaying skills for half rope technique, so it is easier to just get belayed using twin technique (which is essentially the same technique as for a single rope) and when leading I treat the ropes as twins and clip them together in each piece. Then when bringing the followers up, they have the security of a half rope. This would not be technically considered acceptable for a set of twins.

I found the thread where the idea of using both twin and half rope technique in a single pitch is considered. For your reference:

from mammut ... Hello (named removed), you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes. Hope this helps you, best regards from Switzerland, (named removed) Productmanager Climbing Equipment