WSJ article: "REI Ends Era of Many Happy Returns"

Kirby1013 wrote: I gotta defective fitting from an REI employee. Haha.. The amount of time was crazy long because of ignorance of the policy. I went to the Mountaineer for my second pair and despite me saying these are too tight a hundred times. they were right. The TC Pros stretched out and fit great. The way I see it you fit me wrong you owe me the right size. You fit me right and I decide to buy the wrong size.. you owe me a "I told you so" and get the hell outta my shop! I will however agree that returning those shoes with a hole in them is suspect. I just figured no matter what condition they're the wrong size. Plus I caved to peer pressure!

I learned a long time ago never to ask any REI employee's serious questions. 8/10 of them won't know the answers and just came over from ladies footwear to help.

No offense to the REI employees that climb.

Ian G. wrote:I keep seeing and hearing over and over that climbers are cheap...are they really? I guess that there is a not insignificant subset of climbers who are true dirtbags (I used to be one) and will try and worm out of paying for a $5 campsite (or return blown out shite to REI). But I would contend that the majority of climbers, especially regular climbers are not what I would call "cheap." Most climbers I know have full time jobs and can damn well afford all the shiny new gear they need. Climbers as a whole are not cheap. Cheap is ghetto kids playing basketball with shoes completely worn through the sole. Cheap is people in Brazil playing soccer barefoot. Cheap is locals in Costa Rica surfing better than you on a broken board from the 80's. How many software engineers with salaries over 100k went to the Valley this weekend?

Poor is not equal to cheap. Also, you have obviously never been to an inner city. All them kids have the latest $200 Air Jordans.

And in the eyes of retailers like REI, climbers ARE cheap. There are not many consumable parts they can sell once they sold you that rope or a cam. Even apparel, you don't need any specialized wear for your average rock climber - just a pair of jeans and an old t-shirt. Cycling on the other hand... Even the simplest recreational activity like running is way more lucrative than climbing to retailers. An average dedicated road runner needs to get their running shoes replaced every 6 months. And you can sell an endless supply of shorts, shirts and socks to them.

The thing about retailers like REI is that their core customer base is an average city dweller who likes to recreate on weekends, and likes trying different things: kayaking this weekend, climbing the next, once a year ski trip, camping trip in the summer... All while wearing the latest cutest outfits. Climbing is probably the only recreational discipline where dedicated practitioners keep shopping at REI. Even resort skiers, once they graduate from blue runs, start shopping at real ski shops - because they know better than getting their skis tuned by a kid who probably never set their foot on the snow.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: There are tons of private climbing shops that have been around a long time that compete just fine with REI.

This comment goes a long way to show just how out of touch you are about this subject. The king is wearing some pretty awesome clothing today huh? Out of the hundreds of colleagues I used to attend OR shows with, I can now count the number or remaining ones on my hands.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: REI didn't decide they were going to move into town and put XYZ climbing shop out of business. .

Actually, REI does do this; your comment show a lack of comprehension about the free market. They do take into account the weakness of the business in certain areas and then they do their best to capitalize on those weaknesses. They absolutely do decide to move into a new markets and put the existing provider out of business. It's intentional. They are not benevolent like you would like to believe.

If a very strong business exists in a community that they cannot compete with, then they don't move into that town. Think Durango. Being an arrogant dick about this situation does not change how REI does business. The only person you are fooling is yourself.

I actually have no problem with the free market system, I just can't believe they are going to change their policies now that they dominate the market, I find it very disingenuous. You don't seem to understand the concept.

And Backcountry.com just changed their policy to 90 days.

J Q wrote: I actually have no problem with the free market system, I just can't believe they are going to change their policies now that they dominate the market, I find it very disingenuous.

I am not sure how you dont understand why they would change their policy if you understand how American aggressive capitalism works. That is how corporations work. First they create a monopoly, then once they control the market they find ways to cut product quality and increase prices. It is all about profit. If they can find a way to make more money they are going to do it. In this case, I guess REI thinks they have cornered the market and can reduce their product quality to increase their margin. Maybe it will pay off, maybe not, but regardless the decision was unquestionably came about as a way to try to make more money.

It's always important to remember why corporations exist--to make money. With a policy change this big I am sure the CEO and CFO had to sign off (or their equivalent if REI doesent have them). The CEO, CFO, COO, and CIO's only real job is to find ways to make the company more money, either directly or indirectly. So if a company makes a policy change that goes through one of the Cxx's, you can be almost certain it is an attempt to cut costs, increase revenue, or otherwise make more money. CEOs dont do anything else. Same goes for the VPs who answer directly to the directors and implement their changes.

From Doligo

"Poor is not equal to cheap. Also, you have obviously never been to an inner city. All them kids have the latest $200 Air Jordans.

And in the eyes of retailers like REI, climbers ARE cheap. There are not many consumable parts they can sell once they sold you that rope or a cam. Even apparel, you don't need any specialized wear for your average rock climber - just a pair of jeans and an old t-shirt. Cycling on the other hand... Even the simplest recreational activity like running is way more lucrative than climbing to retailers. An average dedicated road runner needs to get their running shoes replaced every 6 months. And you can sell an endless supply of shorts, shirts and socks to them.

The thing about retailers like REI is that their core customer base is an average city dweller who likes to recreate on weekends, and likes trying different things: kayaking this weekend, climbing the next, once a year ski trip, camping trip in the summer... All while wearing the latest cutest outfits. Climbing is probably the only recreational discipline where dedicated practitioners keep shopping at REI. Even resort skiers, once they graduate from blue runs, start shopping at real ski shops - because they know better than getting their skis tuned by a kid who probably never set their foot on the snow."

Nah, I've never been to an inner city. Only spent five years teaching middle school in East Oakland, one of those coaching basketball (actually, those kids were more accurately coaching me...) The kids who wear $200 sneakers are few and far between and the ones that do have them usually still have tags on them;I'll let you figure out why.

Climbing and most outdoor pursuits are and always have been the realm of the privileged and the upper middle class. Not saying there aren't dirtbags or poor climbers or people who used to be poor who climb, but the majority of climbers are white, upper middle class, or at least have the luxury of a familial safety net.

Ian G. wrote:Climbing and most outdoor pursuits are and always have been the realm of the privileged and the upper middle class. Not saying there aren't dirtbags or poor climbers or people who used to be poor who climb, but the majority of climbers are white, upper middle class, or at least have the luxury of a familial safety net.

I don't disagree with you. People with money and privilege can also be cheap. But that's not the point. The virtue of climbing equipment is that it's pretty durable and there is not much upkeep. There are no razor-blade model expendable parts that need to be replaced regularly. Your average weekend warrior desk jockey won't wear out those climbing shoes very soon. Ironically, full-time climbers that go through equipment are usually on the lower end of the economic spectrum and tend to be frugal - not a very good demographic in the retailers' eyes.

J Q wrote: This comment goes a long way to show just how out of touch you are about this subject. The king is wearing some pretty awesome clothing today huh? Out of the hundreds of colleagues I used to attend OR shows with, I can now count the number or remaining ones on my hands. Actually, REI does do this; your comment show a lack of comprehension about the free market. They do take into account the weakness of the business in certain areas and then they do their best to capitalize on those weaknesses. They absolutely do decide to move into a new markets and put the existing provider out of business. It's intentional. They are not benevolent like you would like to believe. If a very strong business exists in a community that they cannot compete with, then they don't move into that town. Think Durango. Being an arrogant dick about this situation does not change how REI does business. The only person you are fooling is yourself. I actually have no problem with the free market system, I just can't believe they are going to change their policies now that they dominate the market, I find it very disingenuous. You don't seem to understand the concept.

Nice anecdote and strawman.

20 years and less friends at the trade shows...better call the news!

Thanks for making my point. Next time you'll do a better job with your customers I hope. REI competed in a market with weak competition (you) and your customers fired you. Perhaps they knew who you were but really they just rolled out like they do in every market like yours.

20 kN wrote: I am not sure how you dont understand why they would change their policy if you understand how American aggressive capitalism works. That is how corporations work. First they create a monopoly, then once they control the market they find ways to cut product quality and increase prices. It is all about profit. If they can find a way to make more money they are going to do it. In this case, I guess REI thinks they have cornered the market and can reduce their product quality to increase their margin. Maybe it will pay off, maybe not, but regardless the decision was unquestionably came about as a way to try to make more money. It's always important to remember why corporations exist--to make money. With a policy change this big I am sure the CEO and CFO had to sign off (or their equivalent if REI doesent have them). The CEO, CFO, COO, and CIO's only real job is to find ways to make the company more money, either directly or indirectly. So if a company makes a policy change that goes through one of the Cxx's, you can be almost certain it is an attempt to cut costs, increase revenue, or otherwise make more money. CEOs dont do anything else. Same goes for the VPs who answer directly to the directors and implement their changes.

REI is boiling the frog. This is probably a long term process to change the return policy and starts with the unlimited returns. The next round of changes probably won't get as much attention.

Hopefully REI is boiling the right critter. I heard if you boil lobsters, they scream....

It seems like by backing REI's business methods and willingness to put other stores out of business, you are saying that they are not doing anything unethical; that they have just been the winners and found the best way to get ahead under the current system and set of laws, so Kudos to them!

So why not defend the people who take advantage of REI's return policy? These people aren't breaking any laws either, are they? They have found a way to beat the system and are taking advantage of it. And the system they are taking advantage of is one that REI themselves put in place, brags about, and uses to get ahead and to put stores without the same financial capabilities out of business.

Oh, but those people are just cheap hippie dirtbag assclowns, while REI is an honest, smart, upstanding store with only the customer's best interests in mind. Seems hypocritical.

+1

mattjohnson wrote:It seems like by backing REI's business methods and willingness to put other stores out of business, you are saying that they are not doing anything unethical; that they have just been the winners and found the best way to get ahead under the current system and set of laws, so Kudos to them! So why not defend the people who take advantage of REI's return policy? These people aren't breaking any laws either, are they? They have found a way to beat the system and are taking advantage of it. And the system they are taking advantage of is one that REI themselves put in place, brags about, and uses to get ahead and to put stores without the same financial capabilities out of business. Oh, but those people are just cheap hippie dirtbag assclowns, while REI is an honest, smart, upstanding store with only the customer's best interests in mind. Seems hypocritical.

You nailed it with your last sentence. The rules of the internet clearly state that in face of a grey area, the next poster shall with great anger proclaim his altruism, moral impecability, willingness to spend more money than YOU will ever make, and superior hygiene.

Mark Pilate wrote:Hopefully REI is boiling the right critter. I heard if you boil lobsters, they scream....

Really? That's weird, crabs don't scream they just beat their claws against the pot. All kinds of noise and carrying on then silence... Kinda when you choke somebody to death.

Kirby1013 wrote: Kinda when you choke somebody to death.

Speaking from experience?

reboot wrote: Speaking from experience?

No doubt, Everybody eats steamed crabs here in Baltimore!

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Nice anecdote and strawman. 20 years and less friends at the trade shows...better call the news! Thanks for making my point. Next time you'll do a better job with your customers I hope. REI competed in a market with weak competition (you) and your customers fired you. Perhaps they knew who you were but really they just rolled out like they do in every market like yours.

Yes, we already acknowledged this point, but hey, way to not actually address any of the points we are actually discussing. I expected nothing less from you.

So you are an ideologue with no sense of reflection? I guess that figures.

Mattjohnson - must admit that I almost went to grab some old REI stuff to exchange after reading your post. You appear to be the Ed Abbey of outdoor retail. But before you launch a Greenpeace campaign against REI, consider the following

1. Two wrongs don't make a right (but three rights make a left).
2. Just because some disagree with you, does not mean they agree with REI
3. Just because some disagree with you, doesn't mean they really give a fuck one way or the other.
4. The "gray" area is really not that gray. About as gray as creationism vs evolution. It's only gray to the few who insist it is gray for their own purposes.
5. I hope you never disparage any hedge fund managers or derivatives traders, bank CEOs or any other cock monkeys responsible for the financial meltdown, cuz they didn't break the law either. They just took advantage of the gray.
6. Your actions don't just stick it to REI, they affect your fellow climbers. Nobody cares about REI itself

Only reason I feel compelled to post is because the "gray" is in fact important. None of us operate in a vacuum. I understand acting in your best self interest and as I posted above, it's up to you to judge for yourself. But if you've ever bitched that the world is going to hell in a hand basket, one big reason is that everyone is lookin for some gray to milk.

The whole mentality that the mega stores are putting the mom and pop shops out of business is silly! Nobody is forcing you where to shop.

Whether you support the mega store or mom and pop shop its going to come at a cost.

REI is like God in the middle ages, we need priests like Mark, in touch with it's mind, to interpret it's laws for us.

Otherwise, when you do a return, you are sinning. A sin within the law is still a sin, and you will go to hell.