Belay accident with Trango Cinch

Alina Garbuzov wrote: I haven't decided. I am also a big fan of this belay device and have used it almost exclusively. I have not had any problems before this one incident. I believe that if I get a new device, it will work perfectly, like mine originally did. I've had mine for two years and got a good amount of use out of it. But the GriGri2 is tempting... Haven't used one yet. I'm not a big fan of GriGri1.

I personally have not used a cinch before but have always assumed that it is a relatively safe device when in good condition and used properly. Even after reading a few incident reports (like this one) about the device. I have heard similar stories about grigris BTW, but those are practically always described in a way that indicates 100% user error.

I choose to belay with an ATC when giving a lead belay and only use my grigri2 for TR or to belay a follower on multipitch, and it works absolutely brilliantly for those purposes. It just catches so much when I try to use it (how my dumb brain is used to) for lead belay. So rather than change my behavior, I just continue to use an ATC.

So I couldn't recommend one over the other for lead belaying from experience, but given the fact that the cinch seems to wear pretty quickly and seems to be a bit finicky, I would probably go with a grigri2 if I had to choose between the two.

Alina, you should reread your message and think why was "heat building up in my left hand"

reboot, thx, and you are one of the two I will let belay me with the cinch :)

hmmmm ... a few points

1 ... the DAV tested a whole bunch of assisted locking devices a few years ago ... basically for the cinch they found that its VERY susceptible to "user error" ...

they recommend the cinch ONLY for "expert" users ... as a reference the mammut smart and click up are recommended for beginner, experienced, expert and kids ... whilte the gri gri is recommended for "experienced" and expert users ...

you can run the google translate for yourselves

Versagen trotz korrekter
Bedienung?

Gleich sechs Unfälle innerhalb eines
Jahres mit dem Cinch bei einer
Verwendungshäufigkeit von 1 Prozent sind erschreckend viel. Zufall? Wir
denken nein. Die Ursache für die
Unfälle liegt in der tückischen Mechanik
des Gerätes, verbunden mit einer
gefährlichen Bedienungsempfehlung
in der Gebrauchsanleitung des Herstellers.
Das Cinch blockiert nur in bestimmten
Positionen, nämlich wenn
der Seilzug rechtwinklig zum Ablasshebel
wirkt. Wird das Gerät aber so
gehalten, wie in der Anleitung empfohlen
(mit dem Ablasshebel nach
rechts aufgehängt und unter dem
Aufhängepunkt gehalten, s. Abb. 1),
läuft das Seil fast reibungsfrei durch
und das Gerät blockiert nicht.
Problematisch sind also Gerätepositionen,
bei denen das Seil parallel zum
Ablasshebel läuft. Wird im Sturzfall
das Gerät in dieser Position reflexartig
fixiert, zeigt es trotz Bremshand am
Bremsseil keine Bremswirkung. Typischerweise
verbrennen sich die Sichernden
drei Finger der Bremshand –
heikel!
Wer mit dem Cinch sichern möchte,
sollte es mit dem Hebel nach links
an seinem Gurt aufhängen und zum
Seilausgeben quer stellen. Das Bremsseil
wird nun nach links zur Seite hin
ausgegeben (parallel zum Ablasshebel).
Im Sturzfall muss das Seil jedoch
rechtwinklig zum Hebel zur ersten
Zwischensicherung auslaufen, dann
kann der Blockiermechanismus funktionieren
(s. Abb. 2).
Fazit
Das optimale Sicherungsgerät kann
man nicht generell bestimmen; es
hängt vom Einsatzbereich und vor
allem vom Anwender ab.
Halbautomaten sind keine Vollautomaten.
Deshalb muss man das
Bremshandprinzip unbedingt einhalten
und das Seilausgeben so handhaben,
dass es zur Bremsmechanik und
den Reflexen passt. Eine exakte Bedienung
ist extrem wichtig; wie groß
die Bandbreite dafür ist, hängt vom
Gerät ab.
Zur Bedienung des Grigri empfiehlt
die DAV-Sicherheitsforschung
eindringlich die Gaswerk-Methode
(s. Abb. 3). Auch gute Kletterer zeigen
beim Seilausgeben mit Grigri häufig
leichtsinnige Fehlbedienungen mit
kompletter Ausschaltung des Blockiermechanismus.
Das Gerät ist nur
nach intensiver Schulung zu empfehlen
und für Kinder mit kleinen Händen
eher ungeeignet. Bei korrekter
Bedienung ist es allerdings ein Sicherheitsgewinn.
Das Cinch ist extrem empfindlich
für Fehlbedienungen, weshalb es nur
Spezialisten verwenden sollten. Für
Kinder und weniger Geübte ist es sehr
unfallträchtig. Die aktuelle Bedienungsanleitung
führt zu „vorhersehbaren
Fehlanwendungen“.
Die Bremskraft eines dynamischen
Sicherungsgerätes muss auf
Durchmesser und Beschaffenheit des
Seils und auf die Handkraft des Sichernden
abgestimmt sein. Besonders
bei Tuber und Achter ist zu beachten,
dass die Bremswirkung von der
Position der Bremshand abhängt
(Daumen zeigt zum Sicherungsgerät
und Bremshand unterhalb des Geräts!
(s. Abb. 4).

DAV Panorama 3/2010 Cinch 1

DAV Panorama 3/2010 Cinch 2

Cinch: nur für Experten

Sieben Unfälle beim Sichern des
Vorsteigers in einem Jahr sind erschreckend.
Alles Fehlbedienungen.
Sie liegen in der komplexen Bedienung
des Geräts begründet: Da das
Cinch keine Feder besitzt, kann man
nur dann Seil ausgeben, wenn man
das Gerät „offen“ hält. Der geradlinige
Seildurchlauf reduziert die Reibung
fast auf null.
Gefahren: Bereits das Verändern der
Position des Geräts kann zur Fehlfunktion
führen. Hält man das Gerät
wie in der Bedienungsanleitung vorgegeben,
kann es trotz Einhalten des
Bremshandprinzips versagen (siehe
Erklärungen in DAV Panorama 3/10).
Beim Ablassen ist die Reibung sehr
gering, eine zusätzliche Umlenkung
im Bremsseil ist zu empfehlen.
Fazit: Sehr komplexes Gerät mit versteckten
Bedienungstücken und daher
hohem Unfallpotenzial. Nur für
Experten.
Click-Up: häng

2 ... the necessity of replacing the pin on the cinch has been known on the intrawebs for at least 3 years ...

cascadeclimbers.com/forum/u…

3 ... the cinch has not real bend ... in case of cam failure to engage the rope will ZIP through the device, there is no backup ... with a gri gri, it will act as a low friction ATC even if the cam fails to engage ....

4 ... there have been tons of "failures" of cinches by people claiming to be experienced users ... they have claimed the device failed to cam ...

a simple search gives you the threads

google.ca/#psj=1&q=trango+c…

i personally use a smart myself, no moving parts, and a natural breaking position

;)

edit to add ... from the German Alpine Club

bergfuehrer.at/steiermark/a…

=P

The Cinch wears out and looses its braking power, especially as it heats up. I had an incident where I was rapping the backside of El Cap with haulbags and my device started to slip. Had I not been wearing gloves, I would melted my skin off and lost control of the descent. I have had three Cinches wear out over the years from moderate to heavy use. Personally I think the device needs to be redesigned to increase the clamping power on the rope, which would solve the issue. I imagine it wouldent be too hard to fix. One would just need to change the angle of the cam relative to the rope so that the cam pinches the rope harder.

8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread…

More cinch failure discussion.

Should be listed as more belaying failures on 8a.nu

What's the point in using a cinch (or even defending it) when we get accident reports like this every few months?

Do you ever hear or read about such accidents with the grigri or other devices? Specifically, experienced belayers failing or nearly failing to arrest a fall because they are caught off-guard when it doesn't hold.

Sure, there are tons of success stories for the cinch (i.e. "I used it for years and never had a problem"). And yes, there seems to be some nuances to using it.

It's just that it has the very low rate of failure that is unacceptable. So why bother with it?

Glad to read there weren't any serious injuries.

My only question is - Why in the world would you continue to use a belay device when you obviously has issues/concerns with it confidently arresting a fall?

product loyalty... next up, Petzl ropes

Jake D. wrote: It feeds rope faster than any device out there, including an ATC. it can also be loaded onto a live rope as an ascender.

Those 2 are its best attributes, no doubt.

Jake D. wrote: It is small and light enough to use on multipitch.

Grigri 2 is lighter.

Jake D. wrote: Problem is many people have not used it correctly... there were threads like this when grigri came out too because people were holding the cam down all the time. Petzl has come out with how many variations of belaying now? so don't try to say that there haven't been many accidents with Grigri because that is quite false.

There will always be more accidents using Grigri because it's far more popular. But for such a niche device, the number of accidents/close calls as well as the general experience level of the belayers involved is quite alarming. Don't try to pretend otherwise. Regardless, the thing is hard to find anymore & the fast wear rate means hopefully nobody will use it soon.

Alina Garbuzov wrote:I was chatting and distracted when my partner fell.

Alina Garbuzov wrote:I was not doing anything different from my usual belay.

Jake D. wrote: i also learned how to belay on it correctly and pay attention. i know these aren't attributes associated with lazy ass noobs who drop people.

You are so special...this kind of illustrates your attitude.

pjheinz83 wrote:Glad to read there weren't any serious injuries. My only question is - Why in the world would you continue to use a belay device when you obviously has issues/concerns with it confidently arresting a fall?

That was definitely my mistake, but Trango never issued warnings or guidance on how to check for wear or needing to replace the Cinch after a while. I learned from my mistake and I share it here.

Really pretty shocking to read so many peeps defending a niche product that has so many failures, esp. of the catastrophic death type. You only have 1 life, 1 body, why would anyone in the right mind use a product that performs well for a short period and then can kill you without notice?

In all my 20 years climbing I've never had a GriGri mechanically fail. PERIOD. Human error sure... Maybe people just don't care because they only belay other people with their chinchs. Is it more important to have a better feel then a device that can unexpectedly kill you???

i don't know... would love to be inside of one of your domes. Are you just not rationalizing the facts here? The old the rules and statistics don't apply to me, thing maybe?

It has more to do with the fact that the device works extremely well when used correctly than product loyalty. Do not confuse human ineptitude with device malfunction.

To each his own. Belay with whatever device you know you can control and have an understanding of. Climbing is a dangerous endeavour...shit may go wrong!

Edit: I'm unaware of a complete cinch failure such that the device somehow came apart? Can you link that Phoenix - i'd like to read that and possibly reassess my use of it

rock_fencer wrote:It has more to do with the fact that the device works extremely well when used correctly than product loyalty.

But we're not talking about it working extremely well 'if' used properly. From reports, folks are using it correctly, it's that the device wears over time and one day it won't catch a fall when used correctly. I'm not talking about it falling apart - come'on - we're talking about instances like the OP, on 8a.nu, and other various sources here where climbers have been dropped, injured, and potentially could even be killed due to a failure of the device to operate as intended (autobrake).

So at some point in the future, even if you use it properly, you can still kill your climber... THAT is the problem that I fail to understand how a rational person could neglect. Is it just the young "it wont happen to me" thing?

adding: Rock fencer - seriously you use the device so when you're reading these posts about it failing even when used properly, what are you saying to yourself that makes you pick up this device and decide to put your climbers life in it? Do you just tell yourself that other people just don't use it properly? or that you will be better at judging when it's life's up and you'll know well before an accident occurs?

The Phoenix wrote: But we're not talking about it working extremely well 'if' used properly. From reports, folks are using it correctly, it's that the device wears over time and one day it won't catch a fall when used correctly. I'm not talking about it falling apart - come'on - we're talking about instances like the OP, on 8a.nu, and other various sources here where climbers have been dropped, injured, and potentially could even be killed due to a failure of the device to operate as intended (autobrake). So at some point in the future, even if you use it properly, you can still kill your climber... THAT is the problem that I fail to understand how a rational person could neglect. Is it just the young "it wont happen to me" thing? adding: Rock fencer - seriously you use the device so when you're reading these posts about it failing even when used properly, what are you saying to yourself that makes you pick up this device and decide to put your climbers life in it? Do you just tell yourself that other people just don't use it properly? or that you will be better at judging when it's life's up and you'll know well before an accident occurs?

i do not believe it was caused by the wear. the Cinch is meant to be used on ropes from 9.5-10.whatever there is a huge margin of error in there for that space. if it was caused by wear then it would not work during his "jerk test" and it wouldn't hold any falls.

the OP grabbed above the device which is a known failure point for Grigri and Cinch.

user error. goodbye.

the main reasons people usually give to buy the cinch are

- its lighter than the gri gri 1
- it works on smaller ropes than the gri gri 1
- it feeds easier

with the gri gri 2 being lightened up and working on smaller ropes ... only the last holds any validity ... with the proper technique the gri gri feeds soft supple ropes just fine IMO

the gri gri also has a less complicated lowering procedure, a simpler setup (if you follow the latest trango instructions on setting up the cinch upside down), wears out evenly ... and is the most used assisted locking device used my many many around the world for decades ... its a proven design that will last for years even with regular use

the smart IMO though is probably the "best" assisted locking device for most single pitch climbers ... it can do anything a gri gri or cinch can except for belaying directly off the anchors (which the alpine smart can do) .... has no moving parts, is easily inspected, is light, works on the same rope diameters, is less than half the price, and has a very ATC-like intuitive breaking position

;)

That's the problem. It can and does fail even in expert hands. It offers no friction when it does unlike a gri or atc or munter.

There is no question that we've got a lot of people rationalizing the use of the Cinch because it's what they have and don't want a new one. I have been that guy before too, I changed.

We've got more people who are dismissing inherent flaws in the device as user error. Well, guess who uses devices, yep, users.

At a time like this it's always useful to bring up the Dunning-Kruger Effect . Basically stating that you all think you are extra skilled because you aren't skilled enough to know that you aren't. If you're unable to self reflect and evaluate on this and realize that people with as much belay time as any of you have dropped people with a Cinch, well, maybe take up lawn darts (but not the sharp kind).

I've added the exception of wear. I regularly inspect my cinch and after four years of use it shows minimal wear, granted i dont get the same mileage that some others get.

I wasnt trying to be cynical in my question...there was some testing done back a few years where the Gen 1 cinch actually broke apart in some strange pull test scenario. I was actually interested if that happened in a real world scenario.

FWIW if a partner doesnt feel comfortable with me using the cinch i have no problem using their gri-gri or atc/reverso what not. I've also never had the cinch slip any more than an ATC or not engage in a fall. I've also never had a gri-gri do that or an ATC for that matter. I'm not sayign these devices are without fault, but perhaps it has less to do with the device of choice and more to do with belaying complacency and inattention to the climber, aka human factors.