Booty Rules!

Brian wrote: Here is a question: If there is some booty (say a stuck nut) on a route and the leader clips into it and the second (laboriously) cleans it. Who does it belong to?

I think it belongs to who's rack you are climbing on that day.

jarthur wrote:You can have your little rules from some over-the-hill Stonemaster Posing Wannabee, but I propose an additional rule: 5) If I find your punk ass using my gear that you stole off my 5.12/5.13 project (that you obviously stick clipped your way up) placed on your 5.9 project I will beat your ass all over the base of the crag.

I don't know about 'some over-the-hill Stonemaster Posing Wannabee' but I was enjoying this thread until now.

ScoRo wrote: As for having your name/number on the gear - I think the question is still there as to why you left all that precious gear you spent so much time labeling (lack of skill/sack, poor decision making, etc.). Being foolhardy isn't trumped by marking gear I don't think.

Injury? Inclement weather? Just plain forgot it? What if I couldn't retrieve it due to a lack of cleaning finesse?

Why the hell do you assume that means it's yours now?

Do you keep wallets you find on the street? Would you keep a GPS device you found on a trail? What about a kayaking paddle? This behavior seems to be solely limited to climbing.

^^^ Refer to rule 1. I'd like to think that climbers (certainly not all of us) generally hold themselves to a higher standard regarding responsibility for our actions.

When we drop our wallets, we usually do so accidentally, when we leave gear, it tends to be out of choice or because you messed up. I would reach out if I found a cam or gear lying on the trail or behind a rock that someone probably sat down on versus a 'stuck' cam that I can wiggle out in 5 minutes.

Accidents/Epics notwithstanding. But maybe even epics...

dmb wrote: Why the hell do you assume that means it's yours now? Do you keep wallets you find on the street? Would you keep a GPS device you found on a trail? What about a kayaking paddle? This behavior seems to be solely limited to climbing.

Kind of... but not every hiker has a GPS it still considered a unique piece of gear, remember that wallets are personal, they contain information that only belong to that person. I don't kayak so I have no need of a paddle so yeah I would try to find the owner. but with climbing I can go to any gear store and buy a carabineer or a cam to a stopper. climbing gear is just a disposable item to help with climbing. Yes the gear is expensive but if you go out under the impression that you ARE going to come home with every nut, cam, carabineer, sling than you are going to get disappointed when your buddy drops a cam or weather pushes you off the climb. If you can not afford to lose a piece every so often than you are in the wrong sport my friend . . . But when you have climbing long enough and hard enough the booty wheel comes around. I have defiantly found gear and left my own gear. In all it has been a close enough exchange of gear, so I don't cry about it.

ScoRo wrote:^^^ Refer to rule 1. I'd like to think that climbers (certainly not all of us) generally hold themselves to a higher standard regarding responsibility for our actions. When we drop our wallets, we usually do so accidentally, when we leave gear, it tends to be out of choice or because you messed up. I would reach out if I found a cam or gear lying on the trail or behind a rock that someone probably sat down on versus a 'stuck' cam that I can wiggle out in 5 minutes. Accidents/Epics notwithstanding. But maybe even epics...

If you leave your wallet somewhere accidentally, that's you messing up.

I can definitely see keeping a cam that you put a substantial amount of effort into retrieving.

Jeff J wrote:Yes the gear is expensive but if you go out under the impression that you ARE going to come home with every nut, cam, carabineer, sling than you are going to get disappointed when your buddy drops a cam or weather pushes you off the climb..

I don't have that impression, and I don't get upset when I lose gear. I just think it's poor form to take a $60 cam when you could easily return it to its owner.

dmb wrote: It's not stealing, technically, to keep someone's gear, just like it isn't stealing to keep someone's lost wallet.

BIG difference..a wallet generally has some identification in it and it is lost, not knowingly left somewhere. The rules of society have been to return the wallet. The rules of climbing have always been to keep the booty (unless you know who left it).

^
"What if all your gear is tagged with a name and phone number?"

Lots of hyperbole and semantic parsing (lost vs left) here. Everyone knows the score. There are myriad reasons people lose or leave gear, some reasons lame, some reasons better.

Not sure why some get worked up if someone posts a note on the slim chance of return

Doligo - Not sure what your point was. Don't think anyone disputes what constitutes a conscious decision. I for one, did exactly what you describe this summer. I Deliberately left a nice booty nest. The situation that drove me to make that call was a direct result of a decision to assist another team, but I don't "blame" anything or anybody and I didn't "expect" the gear back and I would make the same call again.

That said, I didn't think twice about tossing out the fact that it was there and if anyone cared, they know who's gear it was if they felt like returning it (Me returning for it was not an option as I had to catch a flight out).

I guess the bottom line for me is I have no problem with someone keeping the gear as "booty" (obviously they need it more than I do), but I do have a problem with someone bitching about people even posting a note for possible return of their gear.

dmb wrote:^ "What if all your gear is tagged with a name and phone number?"

Then I would contact you and you can pick it up at my convenience. If I got it out easily then you owe me nothing. If it was welded to the rock and it took me 15 minutes to work it loose then you owe me a beer.

BTW...no one marks all their gear with their name and address. That would look embarrassingly like a gumby thing to do. If you are leaving that much gear behind maybe you need a remedial class on placing it or your second needs to learn how to clean it.

the last 3 posts should sum up this thread

Brian wrote:BTW...no one marks all their gear with their name and address. That would look embarrassingly like a gumby thing to do. If you are leaving that much gear behind maybe you need a remedial class on placing it or your second needs to learn how to clean it.

http://www.toughtags.co.uk/

Mark Pilate wrote: Doligo - Not sure what your point was. Don't think anyone disputes what constitutes a conscious decision. I for one, did exactly what you describe this summer. I Deliberately left a nice booty nest. The situation that drove me to make that call was a direct result of a decision to assist another team, but I don't "blame" anything or anybody and I didn't "expect" the gear back and I would make the same call again. That said, I didn't think twice about tossing out the fact that it was there and if anyone cared, they know who's gear it was if they felt like returning it (Me returning for it was not an option as I had to catch a flight out). I guess the bottom line for me is I have no problem with someone keeping the gear as "booty" (obviously they need it more than I do), but I do have a problem with someone bitching about people even posting a note for possible return of their gear.

Mark, your situation falls under the #3, I believe - for the SAR purposes, of course you need SRENE anchors and don't think anyone would have any issue with you posting a note on the interwebs about returning your gear.

Bailing due to weather is different, IMO. If it's a cragging situation, you have an option finishing the pitch and cleaning in the rain or bailing and coming back for it as soon as the weather improves or at the first light next day. If you're going to the mountains, you should be fully aware of the consequences of bad weather and either start early/climb fast or bring tat/leaver gear/2nd rope. If I'm uncomfortable rapping off a single nut and would rather have it backed up with a cam - I rationalize that having a piece of mind with a bomber anchor is at least worth more than $60. I don't expect it to be returned. Whoever got that cam was faster, stronger and better at planning the climb than I, so they deserve it.

jarthur wrote:You can have your little rules from some over-the-hill Stonemaster Posing Wannabee, but I propose an additional rule: 5) If I find your punk ass using my gear that you stole off my 5.12/5.13 project (that you obviously stick clipped your way up) placed on your 5.9 project I will beat your ass all over the base of the crag.

+1, Tradman climbs trad.... not sport.

Welcome to 2013, we don't wear parachute pants any more either.

jarthur wrote:You can have your little rules from some over-the-hill Stonemaster Posing Wannabee, but I propose an additional rule: 5) If I find your punk ass using my gear that you stole off my 5.12/5.13 project (that you obviously stick clipped your way up) placed on your 5.9 project I will beat your ass all over the base of the crag.

You sound like a real big d*ck... just saying...

If I leave gear, unless it's an accident, finders keepers, losers weepers bitches...

I think leaving gear hanging is lame but I'm not 5.13 sport wanker so what do I know?... I'd never take it but what an eyesore...

Are we hand wringing over nothing again?

Every single one of you, despite your internet persona would give gear back you recovered if you knew who lost it. Don't pretend you wouldn't.

Every single one of you would make an effort to find who lost the gear if it was more than a couple pieces at most. Again, stop pretending that you wouldn't.

Most of you would keep a single or couple pieces of gear if you found it clearly stuck/dropped/bailed on and you got it out. Some of you would look for the owner. Either way, the owner wanted it back and accepted that they might not get it.

This sure isn't about fixed draws. Or wallets. Or rescues.

Internet people....

youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jsh…

If taking left gear is a sign of manly competence, then whey is it not the same when J-arthur administers an ass beating in front of your friends?

Sounds like perfect logic to me.

In fact, it think it much more manly to beat a thief in public then to steal in private.

There is of course a difference between gear that is intended to be retrieved and gear that is abandoned.

If you need the internet to help you distinguish the difference between the two then you are nooby f-tard.

nicelegs wrote: Every single one of you, despite your internet persona would give gear back you recovered if you knew who lost it. Don't pretend you wouldn't. Every single one of you would make an effort to find who lost the gear if it was more than a couple pieces at most. Again, stop pretending that you wouldn't. Most of you would keep a single or couple pieces of gear if you found it clearly stuck/dropped/bailed on and you got it out. Some of you would look for the owner. Either way, the owner wanted it back and accepted that they might not get it. This sure isn't about fixed draws. Or wallets. Or rescues. Internet people....

I agree with all you said nicelegs. I would do all those things. It is only the piece that I spent 15 minutes on trying to get out that I feel belongs to me. My effort = my piece of gear. I just bootied a purple Black Diamond nut off of a route on Cannon. It took me a solid 15 minutes to get it out. It isn't that I really need the gear. I just take it as a challenge to get it out.

I'll just share a few anecdotes from my booty hunts.

1) Found rack of draws and cams at the base of the climb in Noname Canyon, CO. Posted in lost and found as soon as I got reception. The owner contacted me the same night and volunteered a six pack.
As it turned out he went back before checking the forum, found nothing, drove home, saw my post, drove there again (we camped nearby). It could've saved him an extra trip, if I just left it sitting there. On the other hand, that area is a popular hiking spot. If he didn't check his pack that night, his gear could've been gone the next day.

2) Found a cam with a binner in a crack at Paradise forks. This is a single pitch area with access from the top. Rapping down is easy, cam wasn't even overcammed. It was obviously a mistake. I noticed a rubber band holding the binner in place on a cam's sling. A few days ago I climbed with a local, and all of his cams where equipped this way. Got in touch with him, turned out his partner forgot to clean it. The crack was hard and sustained, I can see how one can space out there.

3) I feel bad about this one, but here it is: Gunks, my partner and I are on the first pitch of Yellow Wall. To the left of us 3 guys trying No Man's Land. They take turns at loud flailing below the crux and eventually decide to bail, leaving some gear behind. My partner is finishing Yellow wall and I'm rubbing my hands together, anticipating to be rewarded with a generous noob's anchor for an hour of listening to their obnoxious beta.
Guys leave, I get on No Man's Land and find a single micronut barely holding on in a horizontal crack. The guy got lowered off of that, swinging back and forth while cleaning everything else on his way down.
I was shocked. I could've offered to clean their gear, I could've asked them to be quieter next time in return. Instead I decided to go for booty and almost ended up with a guy dying next to me. Worst part: he walked away having no idea how narrow his escape was.

4) Another one from the Gunks. My partner leads a short pitch to a "fixed" anchor, consisting of some old nuts or tricams. Neither of them are stuck, but the anchor is solid. He cleans it and continues climbing above through loose rock and dirt to a tree with an old sling. Lowers from there. We end up with a short discussion, which can be summarized like this:
- You made the route crappier
- Ethics. You can live without a fixed anchor there, therefore you don't need it.
Go figure.

5) Some alpine climb in Cascades. My partner booties a red alien. It's a weekend, there is another party couple pitches above us. At some point we catch up with them:
- Nice day. How did you like those pitches?
- Great, awesome
- You know we couldn't get our cam out on one of them.
- This one?
- Thanks a lot. Wanna go ahead of us?
- Sure, Thanks

6) Single draw hanging mid-route. This happened on multiple occasions. Usually I take them. This is when I don't:
a. When I have to grab it
b. When I had to clip it, because I can't reach the bolt
c. When I stickclip or rap the route to set it up, because I can't tell if I would use it for a) or b)
d. IMPORTANT: Especially on rappel. In places like Potrero, it's not just to get you down to the next anchor, but also to avoid the rope falling into the cacti growing on the wall. Booty this and you screw up yourself and every party following you.

I would also like to add another rule:
Fixed gear/draws on the whole pitch mean someone is working on it and plans to come back. If you think this practice is not acceptable in your area, take them down and post in lost and found. There is no excuse not to do so, unless your intent is stealing.

Finally, please, don't support stealing in the name of ethics. People who steal suck, but it's support from community, that enables them by making it somehow acceptable.

For the record, if it wasn't clear, I'm all about reaching out to the community if I find gear that appears to have been accidentally left. I would NEVER keep gear if I knew whose it was, and have several pieces of gear that were darn well stuck (almost) beyond recovery.

I don't mind seeing people reach out on any forums if they lost gear, for whatever reason. Shoot, I even mentioned where there is booty, waiting, right now.

But I also don't have an expectation that if someone (who I do not know and never saw while climbing) finds a cam/nut/whatever that I got stuck or left for whatever reason that they have any sort of obligation to bend over backwards to find me.

nicelegs' comment is pretty spot on. I thought the wallet comparison was decent. No one is advocating stealing gear; responsibility for ones actions seems to be a fair topic of discussion, especially regarding climbing.

As for the 'internet people' comment; the only comments that truly bothered me was about beating peoples 'punk ass'. The rest of the thread, as with most conversations regarding ethics, offered numerous viewpoints on the same topic, many of which were essentially identical.

Thanks, MP Forum, for continuing to provide loads of entertainment value.