marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me

For what it's worth, I've seen a few Marmot products "delaminate" as shown, and after not much use. That being said, I really like Marmot products, so hopefully they figure out their warranty program.

Ryan Nevius wrote:Is that really a defect?

Maybe not, but the point is that the company shouldn't be sitting there asking themselves that, especially when they've offered a lifetime guarantee (I trust bearbreeder that they have).

There are companies that stick to their claims and replace packs and such w/ no questions asked. Marmot is obviously not one of them.

In this case, anyone can see that type of laminate on the inside of a pack and know that it is going to delaminate. It's not a high quality PU coating like some waterproof packs have. Marmot should either stop using this cheap type of laminate, or stop claiming they offer a lifetime guarantee.

BTW, that IS a defect - it is designed to keep water from leaking into the pack and if it's not there, the pack is not even water resistant.

Ryan Williams wrote: Maybe not, but the point is that the company shouldn't be sitting there asking themselves that, especially when they've offered a lifetime guarantee (I trust bearbreeder that they have). There are companies that stick to their claims and replace packs and such w/ no questions asked. Marmot is obviously not one of them.

at the time when i bought the pack marmot had "lifetime" warranty on their products ...

this is no longer on their site ... it doesnt surprise me if this is no longer the case

but you can read about it on the old internet threads here

tetongravity.com/forums/sho…

you can also see it on their product registration page in their survey questions

marmot survey page

marmot.com/registration/inf…

im actually very curious if they changed the text about "lifetime" warranty on their advertising and website recently ... i would think that a company that stands behind their products and believes in "lifetime" would advertise it like crazy ... the way OR does with their infinite guarantee

;)

Ray Pinpillage wrote:Marmot packs suck and you're a whiner. If I were a retailer or manufacturer I'd happily send you to a competitor.

And if you were actually a retailer or a manufacturer, you'd know that doing that is basically the same as taking 10% of your top line sales and sending it to the guys down the road.

Good companies with strong products don't have to worry about losing money on their "lifetime guarantee" because their products and their service keep customers coming back time after time. Why do we all pay so much money for Patagonia, Arcteryx, etc? Because they are the best.

I am a retail manager, and for the last two years I ran a store that was owned by a very large and successful outdoor company. This was NOT a franchise store, it is owned by the company. I was instructed by the company to never EVER let a customer walk out of my store unhappy. "Do whatever it takes" to keep them coming back - and they always do. THAT is why the company dominates their chosen market.

As a retailer/manufacturer, if you don't take care of your customers, you lose. Simple as that.

Marmot has always treated me well over the years. I'll be disappointed if they have changed.

The lifetime in lifetime guarantee is for the lifetime of the product, not your life. The product is guaranteed right up until it dies.

DannyUncanny wrote:The lifetime in lifetime guarantee is for the lifetime of the product, not your life. The product is guaranteed right up until it dies.

Most of the "lifetime warranties" I see are worded exactly like this and I always think it is weasle wording to avoid having to state how long their product should last and avoid having to honoring a warranty. I would much rather see an actual duration instead of a highly subjective term. For example my car's power train is warranted for 10 years or 100000 miles which ever comes first.

There are a few products which explicitly state the lifetime of the original owner. I like these warranties.

Personally, I don't care about warranties much. If the product lasts a reasonable period of time for the type and price of the product then I turn into a repeat customer; if not I move on. If a product is crap and needs to be warrantied, I have no faith that the replaced version will be any better. 4 years for a lightly used pack would not meet my value threshold for a repeat customer.

Pack is clearly barely used, but is delaminating from the inside.

Thanks for the heads up. Won't be buying Marmot.

What is with the vehement defence of this company Greg, do you work for them or something?

Companies that give a 'lifetime warrant' need to stick by it. Full stop.

Do you feel like a better person because you are defending a huge company from the unwashed dirtbag climber masses?

They work for us dude.

...on a related note, Brakemasters sucks! Burned several times with poor, dangerous work and no warranty upheld.

Take to Facebook. Post pictures of it all over their facebook page...tell them you don't want them to lose a "long time customer," and that you're disappointed with the quality/service.

You'll get a free pack

20 kN wrote:hmm you might want to look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. That federal act places the burden of proving the product is not covered under warranty upon the manufacturer. In other words, I believe you have a legal right to ask the manufacturer to prove the damage was not caused by a defect, and if they cant they are required under federal law to replace the product. The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act is famous for protecting those who modify automobiles. It states that it is illegal for a manufacturer to void a warranty solely because you modified a part. They can only void a warranty on the part you modified, and only if they can prove the modification resulted in damage to the part.

Sounds like a good way to spend $$$$$ on a lawyer and a lawsuit for a couple hundred dollar pack

The "Customer is always right" and "Lifetime warranty" way of doing business became mainstream when Stew Leonard brought it into his supermarket. Why? Because people and companies saw it was MORE PROFITABLE to give the occasional customer something they wanted, even if there was an upfront cost, because they would see a positive return in the long run (increased volume of sales, for various reasons, as a result of the smaller upfront cost). Heck, he even paid for a lady's $2000 dental bill because she cracked a tooth while eating some corn(?)that she purchased at his place. Again, why? Because that $2000 was an investment that meant she would return for YEARS, her children would return, and her friends would know what kind of company they were dealing with (a company that cared about CS). Imagine if he wouldn't have paid that bill...he may have been losing out on $1000 worth of her business per year for the rest of her life.

What am I getting at? Businesses adopted the lifetime warranty and "customer is always right" policy because it was good...for business. Yes, it is inherently also good for the customer, but it is primarily a business move.

What happens when people start abusing this policy? Well, the business starts to lose money (or close to it), and the investment they make in every customer is not worth it. They have to start picking and choosing their battles. Take the REI Return Policy change, for example. Maybe Marmot is experiencing something similar.

Could it be that quality is actually lacking in Marmot's products and is contributing to a higher number of returns and exchanges? Sure. But this could also be a situation where we're seeing people think that goods should last forever, even in a closet. Ropes get old...sitting. Materials start to break down...while sitting. Same story with some adhesives.

Am I arguing one way or the other here? No. 4 years can be a long time or a short time for a pack. I've blown through a pack in less than a day, and also have had packs last me for 15 years. I don't know enough info about the life of the pack to cast my judgement. But what I can say is, for some reason, this is a business move by Marmot.

I've read the whole thread, and it's possible that I overlooked it, but nobody seems to be talking about gear repair and maintenance.

I am going to set aside the warranty issue, since I cannot know the conditions under which you stored that pack for 11 months out of the year (In your attic? In a cool, dry place? In the basement? Packed full? Empty? Clean? Dirty? Doesn't matter. Too many variables.) I am not here to judge your assessment of the Marmot warranty.

With a brush made of stiff nylon to scrub off the old coating, and a $10 bottle of seam seal recoat ( campmor.com/seam-sealant-re…), you can restore that pack to a waterproof, servicable condition without having to resort to using the return policy.

Don't get me wrong: I have returned PLENTY of gear over the years. However, my first inclination is to see whether I can repair or maintain the gear I have. I expect my gear to need maintenance whether it's seen light, heavy, or even no use.

The added bonus of repairing instead of returning is that you don't have to break in your new gear again.

Jake Jones wrote: Bummer too. I was thinking about getting a limelight tent, now I'm reconsidering.

I have a Limelight 3 and love it. Had it for 5-6 years and it's holding up well so far.

Ryan Williams wrote: And if you were actually a retailer or a manufacturer, you'd know that doing that is basically the same as taking 10% of your top line sales and sending it to the guys down the road. Good companies with strong products don't have to worry about losing money on their "lifetime guarantee" because their products and their service keep customers coming back time after time. Why do we all pay so much money for Patagonia, Arcteryx, etc? Because they are the best. I am a retail manager, and for the last two years I ran a store that was owned by a very large and successful outdoor company. This was NOT a franchise store, it is owned by the company. I was instructed by the company to never EVER let a customer walk out of my store unhappy. "Do whatever it takes" to keep them coming back - and they always do. THAT is why the company dominates their chosen market. As a retailer/manufacturer, if you don't take care of your customers, you lose. Simple as that.

Neither of the companies you mentioned have unconditional lifetime warranties and I've seen both deny returns. Are they good about handing returns? Yes, of course. The OP has slagged Arc'teryx here on MP as well.

Hmmm, did they ever offer a lifetime warranty on their ropes? My original one from about'75 is hanging in, now as a rope hammock, but would gladly unravel it and send to Marmot if they want it for testing and free replacement these days. I'm all up for that!

I have a Marmot goretex shell that I've had for 16 years.

I've abused the shit out of it...thur hiked the AT with it, worked hoods in the woods in it, done many mountaineering trips, ice climbs, and alpine climbs in it, used it as my daily rain wear living Portland for years, and it still is my main rain jacket or cold weather shell.

Bomber. Never needed a warranty, because it's the best piece of outdoor clothing I've ever owned.

Had a marmot snythetic puffy. Again as bomber as anything I've ever had. Lasted 8 years before I'd burned so many holes in it and it was so dirty and compressed, I retired it to home remodeling wear...went on to paint the house in it, hang a house full of sheetrock in winter in it, and finally tossed it at 12 yeard old when there was so much caulk on it everything was stuck together.

2 Marmot wizard sny sleeping bags, bomber. Served me very well and lasted as long as any other of the same materials.

On my 2nd driclime windshirt. First one lasted over 10 years, same deal as the puffy, retired to work wear then tossed.

They make good stuff. I've never had to use the warranty, and would rec the brand to anyone.

I, too, I have had great experiences with marmot products. It seems to be bearbreeder's MO to try and abuse return policies then slander the company on mp. As others have mentioned he's done the same with Arcteryx, and was one of the loudest blatant proponent of the REI "rental" policy. He bragged loudly about it on here, loudly repeating "if it was hurting REI they'd change it!" to anyone that questions the ethics of it (hindsight is 20/20 i guess). I would not take a bit of what bb here says about any company into account when I go to purchase anything.

I ordered two new iPhones from Verizon. One black, One white. They sent me two black phones. I called and they said I could exchange a black one at my local store for a white one. They even called to check and see if they had a white one ready. I had some other errands to run, so why not just stop in and exchange the phone (even though I didn't care that much about the color). They told me it would be $35 to exchange when I got there. Really? $35 to fix their mistake. A mistake that I was fixing on my own time. No offer to contact customer service to see if they would refund the $35 (which clearly was a retail store policy). They claim customer service should have informed me. I left with a black phone and if it weren't such a pain in the ass would switch carries. Will seriously consider it next time my contact is up.

Doesn't take much that much to keep a customer. If I treated my clients like that I would be out of business in no time.

Return policy is one reason REI has been so popular....sorry for the thread drift.

Is the delamination really a big deal? It's a pack. Put stuff in it and go climbing.

Paul-B wrote:I, too, I have had great experiences with marmot products. It seems to be bearbreeder's MO to try and abuse return policies then slander the company on mp. As others have mentioned he's done the same with Arcteryx, and was one of the loudest blatant proponent of the REI "rental" policy. He bragged loudly about it on here, loudly repeating "if it was hurting REI they'd change it!" to anyone that questions the ethics of it. I would not take a bit of what bb here says about any company into account when I go to purchase anything.

"First of all let me say that I really like the way my Arc'Teryx R320
fits and feels. However, the quality is terrible. Here's a letter
I sent to them last year. Sorry it's so long.

They sent me a brand new harness, however, the fundamental problem
was NOT corrected and I expect it to wear-out quickly. " - John Byrnes, Administrator

"I have had the R320 for about two years. Great harness that I used primarily for outdoor trad and some sport. It did not crease at all as some of the R300 users have reported. It's has two weaknesses: not great for extended hanging and the tie in points wear a bit fast. My leg loop in particular is now showing the orange wear material and it's retired. Hopefully, the R300 is beefier in the belay loops. " -Joseph P. Crotty

"Here's the final word on my harness and relationship with Arcteryx harnesses in general. I guess they must be fed up with returns/warrantees because this is what they had to say.

"None of our harnesses should be expected to last for more than 200 days of use. Especially if you are climbing outside because that wears them out faster."

So I guess my 275 days was really pushing it. No warranty. I definitely will not be buying another harness where 200 days of use is supposedly the lifetime of the $150 I dropped." - Bryan Hall

"I had the R300 and the bottom belay loop blew out in less than 3 months. I climb about an average of 3-4 days a week. When I say blew out I mean the webbing was worn through exposing the indicator. I'm not sure how much this compromised the integrity of the harness, but it didn't give me a warm fuzzy so I eventually got rid of it. Was it comfortable for sport climbing? Heck yeah! It was the most comfortable harness I've ever worn, but for $150 I went back to the $75 harness and I still have worn my belay loop out since switching back. "

My suggestion is that if you really want one goto REI. When the belay loop blows out (assuming they haven't fixed this problem) you won't have to dick around with the hassle of sending it back to Arc'Teryx when you can just drop by your local REI. -jarthur

"Also, to chime in regarding the durability of these harnesses, I have owned my r-320 for 3 years. Absolutely love the thing, except for a couple issues regarding durability. This is my third harness.

Two things have worn out for me. 1) All the elastic stuff everywhere wore out waaaay too fast. Minor issue. Hopefully they'll be using a more robust elastic in the new generation. 2) Unfortunately, I have seriously troubling wear through the reinforcement of the rope attachment points on the leg loops and waist belt. 3 years of hard use, but still surprised to see something like that. I'm sending it in to arc'teryx. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll replace it." -shoo

"Wore through my bottom loop(orange indicator showing) in about a year. If I don't get another one fo' free, they will never have my business again." -Phil Lauffen

'Arc’teryx customer service is amazing. When my R-260 (my previous harness) tie-in point failed after a little less than two years of use, I sent it back to them. I was told that’s an average life-span for a harness. However, my previous Arc’teryx harness, the Vapor, was purchased circa 1996 and still looks nearly new. I told them I was disappointed and that the quality seemed to be headed south if it fails this quickly. They offered to replace my harness. But with no more of that previous year’s model in stock, they made another offer. The result? A brand new R-260-LT. " - ACassebeer

those were just the ones exclusively on MP that i could find with a 3 min search ... now to be fair to dead bird, until recently they seemed to have replaced it just fine, course you had to ship it in and wait a few weeks ...

though the latest one had the "200 day" harness life thingamajig

;)

Take the REI Return Policy change, for example.

Exactly. REI's new policy is the perfect example of people taking advantage of good thing.

I won't deny that a 'lifetime warranty' can be deceiving. It does come off like it's your lifetime. It's not. It's the lifetime of the materials. And materials is where I get hung up...

We all know that we need to replace the nylon on our cams and slings every 2-5 years (depending on your viewpoint). So why is a nylon backpack or jacket any different? Now I am not saying that I only expect one or two years out of my jacket - I want a whole lot more life than that! But why would I suspect even for a moment that my three year old jacket would be just as good as the day it was when it was new? Does your car drive the same as it did the day you drove it off the lot years after?

Take this argument one step further and ten years out... I would never climb on a 10 year old climbing rope but I might tie down a load in my pickup truck. So apply that same logic to a jacket or a backpack and ask why it isn't okay for the nylon to wear out, but it is okay on my climbing gear.