Manslaughter charges in the death of climber Tito Traversa

You can hook a autolocking belay device wrong, tie in wrong, put on your harness wrong. It is the nature of the sport. You don't see 12 year olds base jumping for a reason. RISK MANAGEMENT.

I feel for the parents of any innocent kid that died. But you are responsible for your kid. I am sure the instructor also had some point of fault to. But didn't this kid climb 5.14 or some BS? he seemed to be pretty capable of climbing so he should be pretty capable of checking his gear. To many parents like to blame bad parenting on other people. Your kid died and you put him in the hands of that instructor. No lawsuits, No Criminal investigations. Accidents happens and if you don't like that you shouldn't let you kid do something dangerous that involves risk management and someone that can be self reliant.

It is sad to lose anyone and a kid even more so. But you shouldn't think the world of any "adventure/action" sport is a safe place for a kid. If you can't imagine them messing up and possibly dying you should be there along the way to make sure they are safe. I mean you did create them after all. Personally if anything they should slap the parents on the wrists not anyone else.

slim wrote: how would anybody ever learn to climb if this was the golden rule? everybody is a beginner at some point, and usually goes out with somebody who is looking out for them.

I don't actually think this should be a rule of any sort. I was playing devils advocate and showing how ridiculous it is we are saying that a well documented "climbing phenomenon" regularly pulling down 5.13 and 5.14's was somehow unaware and unable to be responsible for his own safety. Im sorry but your 9 year old climbing casually in the gym has no comparison to a professional level full time climber ticking off routes that you, I or your 9 year old will ever be able to do. We let far less experienced people to belay and climb alongside us and give them no free pass on personal safety.

For the record as to why I feel this way.

1. it doesn't say it was a guided course. It says it was a organized trip with instructors present (which does not mean they claimed to be a guide) Just because some gym instructor brings you outside doesn't mean he can rescue you halfway up El cap.

He didn't bring his car to the mechanic to get fixed, He had a friend who "thought he could help fix it"

2. He borrowed the equipment (It was not given by a instructor) If I ask to borrow my car, I hope you know how to drive it before asking (or make it damn clear).

3. This kid was a sponsored climber and not some innocent wide eyed lost in the dark kid. Don't throw your kid in that position as a parent, if you can't handle the consequences.

It is a desperate grasp at taking the fault off yourself for allowing your kid to go on this "organized trip" without your supervision. They loved the glory of having a prodigy son who climbed hard & don't want to face the reality of what can happen when you climb.

chefMatt wrote: Sounds like your child is not ready to climb yet then to me. None of us(or at least I) would ever climb with an adult partner that is incapable of being responsible for their own safety.

Maybe I am missing something here, but it sounds like you are saying that none of us, or you, would ever climb with an adult partner that is incapable of being responsible for their own safety.

So are you saying that if some cute gal asked you to take her climbing you wouldn't do so? How did you learn to climb? I assume at some point you were incapable of being responsible for your own safety?

John Wilder wrote: once again, it is irrelevant whether or not Tito knew the risks or how to properly assemble the draws- he was 12 years old. 12 year olds cannot legally assume responsibility for their own life. we also have no idea what the extent of his climbing knowledge was outside of his ability to climb technically difficult routes. its very much in the realm of possibility that all he knew how to do was clip bolts on lead and give a top rope belay. assuming that he had more knowledge than that simply because he pulls down hard is foolish. finally, we also are sitting here speculating about basically everything. we have no idea what european regulations, laws, court procedures, etc, etc look like. hell, this is actually an international incident, since the accident happened in France but is being investigated in Italy.

Maybe not legally, but what a contrived court of law decides is "legal" has absolutely nothing to do with staying alive on the rock. The rock does not care how old you are how experienced or how good of a person you are. The moment you toe that first hold the only two people responsible for keeping you alive are the belayer and yourself. The belayer obviously should have performed the standard double check but if you as the climber allow yourself to give the "on-belay" without those most basic(I.e. a child can handle them) safety checks then you have once again assumed total responsibility.

I feel like everyone trying to point the finger at someone else probably needs to take a long hard look at their involvement in this sport. If you think for one moment you are not ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for your own life and or death then you do not belong anywhere near climbing

slim wrote: Maybe I am missing something here, but it sounds like you are saying that none of us, or you, would ever climb with an adult partner that is incapable of being responsible for their own safety. So are you saying that if some cute gal asked you to take her climbing you wouldn't do so? How did you learn to climb? I assume at some point you were incapable of being responsible for your own safety?

I wouldn't bring my friends son climbing and throw him on lead if I didn't think he could handle himself and his parents knew the risk. I would do anything in my power to keep anyone I climb with safe "Including risking my life" but I make sure everyone accepts the risk of lead climbing and knows the more careless they are the less safe they are. (doesn't every climbing partner)

PosiDave wrote: I wouldn't bring my friends son climbing and throw him on lead if I didn't think he could handle himself and his parents knew the risk. I would do anything in my power to keep anyone I climb with safe "Including risking my life" but I make sure everyone accepts the risk of lead climbing and knows the more careless they are the less safe they are. (doesn't every climbing partner)

i guess my thought is that i am almost entirely responsible for my safety, except for that moment when i am flying through the air and my belayer is responsible for my safety. in the case where i have taken an inexperienced climber out, i feel that i am primarily responsible for their safety. i also feel that i am secondarily responsible for my experienced partner's safety to the extent possible.

in tito's case, i don't feel that he would qualify as experienced. but that being said, if i handed a bunch of draws with a couple rigged incorrectly to a handfull of experienced climbers, how many would notice the error? my guess is not too many.

Jake Jones wrote: First,I would suggest not buying life saving equipment that comes in pieces requiring assembly to save your life. Second, since someone did in fact buy gear that required assembly, I would suggest assembling all of the draws out of the dozen correctly instead of just some of them (this, of course is debatable since facts are not known regarding whether they came assembled or disassembled, with in structions or without, and who did the disassembling or assembling). I would also suggest instructors in a guided group check knots, harnesses, and gear of both belayer and climber before anyone takes off on a route -especially when the consequence is death for not doing so. This is essentially the same as not checking a top rope anchor that kids set up before someone gets on the route. Unacceptable, and not up for debate. With a 3:1 ratio this should be standard practice and not that difficult to accomplish. I know you were not addressing me specifically Tom, I'm just using your post to respond with what I think are very pertinent points in this case that some people seem to be ignoring. This isn't a slight at you. The death of a kid- any kid, sucks and it's very sobering in a bad and heartbreaking way. That does not mean though, that we should abandon logic and ignore facts- particularly those that have a direct bearing on a prosecution.

No offense taken Jake and I am only slightly offended at SavageMarmots response. (WTF Marm-o?)
My point is the brighter colored rubber keeper MAY be more readily identifiable in the sense that the keeper should only be wrapped around the dogbone sling and NOT around the biner in any manner.
I have purchased many dogbones individually from different manufacturers because the biners were in safe working order and were no where near retirement.
I couldn't afford to buy all new complete draws just because the bones were worn out.

Safety is paramount in our climbing endeavors, complacency kills.

I will not tie in with (insert any climber's name) without double checking harnesses, knots, gear, length of route vs length of cord etcetera.
One does not clip into a bolt/fixed gear, or a set of anchors without examining it first, correct?

A roped team of climbers must never forget;
Your life is my responsibility as my life is yours

To quote Starlight and Storm by Gaston Rebuffat
"People have a fixed idea of what a guide is; a professional, who, in return for a certain sum of money, takes you to the summit to which you aspire. But the guide is more than that: he is a competent friend who controls the party, but who also teaches you and stimulates your interest. "There is only one real luxury, that of human relationships," Saint Exupery has written. Mountains offer one of the finest frameworks in which these can develop. Your climbing companion is the man with whom you will share the good and exacting moments of mountaineering and many of your finest experiences. The choice of companion is as important as the choice of climb.

Through such apprenticeship to technique, through advice such as this, I have found you all, my Good Companions of Adventure.
I am immensly happy, for I have felt the rope between us. We are linked for life. We have approached the stars together and at such heights, the air has a special savor.
What a strange situation we are in, as seen by the layman- two beings united by a thread between heaven and earth! When I start climbing again, the reason for climbing is at once clear to me, or one of the reasons-to struggle on for nothing else but satisfaction. Here the significance of the struggle is to strip men, so as to better bring them together.

Together we have sweated on the moraines and shivered in the bivouacs, the sun has warmed us, then scorched us, the wind has caressed us, then buffeted us. We have been scraped by granite walls and our knees have been grazed by stones and boulders. We have slept on boards and sometimes on snow, waiting for the first hint of dawn and the return of the sun, we have labored down endless rappels on wet ropes which clung to our damp clothes. We have been mocked, scorned and battered by the elemental storms.

Together we have known apprehension, uncertainty and fear; but of what importance is all that? For it was only up there that we discovered many things of which we had previously known nothing: a joy that was new to us, happiness that was doubled because it was shared, a wordless friendship which was no mere superficial impulse.

We felt at once that our ordinary lives and their pleasures no longer satisfied us, and as we came down towards the plains, nostalgia for the heights grew in us.

But I am happy again, because I have found you all again during this appreticeship to technique. Here I am standing on Jean's shoulder; there, Maurice shared a lemon with me; on the arete Eduoard is pulling down the rappel rope; on the icy slope, Henri taught me to cut steps.
You, Henri, above all; you may count for nothing in the eyes of many, but for me, you are my "Elder Brother of the Mountains."
I wish all climbers an Elder Brother who can always be looked up to with love and respect, who will watch the way you rope yourself up, and who, as he initiates you into an exacting life, looks after you like a mother hen.
The one who shares with you this fleeting sovereignty at 12,000 feet and who points out the surrounding peaks as a gardener shows his flowers.
The one at whom we all gaze with envy, for the mountain hut is his lodging and the mountain his domain.

The friendship of a man as rich as that cannot be bought."

To say that I am solely responsible for my own safety while climbing is against all the tenable theories of climbing. That is why Gaston titled the chapter "The Brotherhood of the Rope."

May Tito's soul rest in peace.

Tom

It's sad, no one, saw the rubber keepers, were installed backwards and the sling was not into the biner, the rubber keeper is on the bolt side, should be on the rope end, bentgate,

Look closely, at the biner, looks like there's a fair amount of wear of biner, , someone may have removed the rubber keeper and reinstalled them wrong,

first thing I learned, when the new fancy sewn draws and bentgate biners came out, clip rope into rubber keeper end,

The Phoenix wrote: And your points about petzl are irrelevant because they have designed a rubber holder that cannot be misapplied like these ones so, they have thought about it.

Incorrect. The Petzl Ange Finesse quick draws CAN be assembled incorrectly as demonstrated here:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSaT…

If you wish to stay alive and protect the lives of others while climbing always maintain a high degree of vigilence...

Jaime M wrote: If BD doesn't include instructions on proper usage of the harness and doesn't include safety warnings for misuse of the product, then yes--you could sue them. That is why they have those instructions attached to the harness (and quickdraws, cams, 'biners, etc.). Once you remove those instruction from the product you are essentially removing BD's legal responsibility for misuse of the product. Note that this is really only misuse (something that's the fault of the user--like failure to double back). This wouldn't include manufacturing defects--you could still sue if it's found that, though you used the harness correctly, the stitching was faulty and it caused the harness to fail. The company of the rubber stopper is being accused of not providing the proper documentation for using the product and/or for a lack of safety warnings. That would be fair game for a lawsuit here in the US. We'll see if it holds up under Italian law.

Are you representing that warnings cure liability? Because it's not even close to that simple.

Maybe the tag on the QD says "Climbing is Dangerous." What then?

_ _ _ _ _ wrote: Are you representing that warnings cure liability? Because it's not even close to that simple. Maybe the tag on the QD says "Climbing is Dangerous." What then?

Of course it's not that simple (nothing legal is simple). But there are three types of common product liability laws (in the US at least)-- 1. Manufacturing defect--e.g. as a side effect of the way the carabiner was made, the new quickdraw has burrs on the clipping carabiner, causing fraying or cutting to the rope. 2. Design defect--see the chainsaw example up-thread. 3. Failure-to-warn. It's my understanding that this is the type of liability investigation ongoing in the Traversa case. To protect against this type of lawsuit, companies include warnings and instructions for their products' use. I bought a set of draws from BD a little over a year ago, and this came on every single draw:
demandware.edgesuite.net/aa…

If a product could reasonably be used in such a way as to cause harm or injury, the company is legally required to put a warning and instruction label (or booklet/packet) on that product. Having a warning label does not mean that a company can't be sued for product liability--they could still be sued under the first two examples. In fact, they could still be sued for failure-to-warn as well if there is something major missing from their warning label and instructions. For example, if a pain killer's warning label says "this may cause stomach bleeding and ulcers" but doesn't include any warnings about potential serious allergic reactions or the possibility and consequences of overdosing, they could be sued for failure-to-warn.

So in a way, the law is really "that simple"--warning labels must be standard issue for products that have the possibility of posing a danger to the user. What is not at all simple is determining exactly what we've been discussing in this thread. What is the likelihood of misuse of a keeper like this and is that statistically significant enough to legally require a warning and/or instruction label? Did the company test the product for something like this? Could the way the keeper was attached be considered reasonable misuse, or is it an unforeseeable user error? When it comes to climbing equipment, what sort of audience should the warnings and instructions be written for? Dirtbags? Gym rats? Non climbers? How much knowledge could the company assume these groups have about the product outside of the warning and instruction information given?

I also think it will interesting to see if the necessity of keepers comes up. Most people agree that they are not strictly "required," but they do add to the safety of the draws, so would the court considered them safety equipment or an accessory? Is adding a keeper to a quickdraw considered "modifying" safety equipment, and how would that affect liability?

I don't know the details of the accident but I have noticed that all the pictures of Tito show him climbing without a helmet. I wonder if it could have made a difference?

Doug Foust wrote:I don't know the details of the accident but I have noticed that all the pictures of Tito show him climbing without a helmet. I wonder if it could have made a difference?

According to the reports I've read, he decked from 15-20 meters, or 50 to 65 feet. A few minutes with a high school physics book and a calculator will tell you that he hit the ground at ~40 mph. I would not expect a climbing helmet to do a whole lot to protect from that kind of impact. Since Tito was 12 years old, I doubt that his neck muscles and skull were fully developed, making him even more vulnerable to head injuries than an adult would be.

I don't know what the exact injuries were that caused his death, maybe massive internal trauma or a broken neck, where a helmet would have been irrelevant. I do think that wearing a helmet(especially on lead) is a pretty good idea. It only takes one wierd fall or freak occurance to bump your melon and check out. I'm surprised that a youth climbing club wouldn't require the kids to wear one.

I am aware of more than one occurance where someone has decked from 25 meters and survived(maybe they flunked high school physics)