Tying into rope through carabiner

Thought this horse was a skeleton by now, but its a slow day....
Glacier travel is not in the issue ball park (no one cares how/if the middle guy ties in --if at all)

but I'd wager that my partner and I could untie and retie just about as quick as you and your partner can fiddle with locking biners. At least quick enough to make any perceived value of using biners moot. Especially if you get any grit in your gate screws and have sweaty hands (never happens on a wall, I know). Plus I'd wager again that you are using some sort of locking set of D's and that 20% of the time you look down, your rope is crossloading your gates....maybe not YOU (cuz you obviously have it together), but its happening to somebody using this technique.

ze_dirtbag wrote:do you cats re-tie the fig on a bight each time? i'm a tie in kinda guy, but whatever tickles your pickle. i guess the only thing in my feeble mind is the surface area to impact force ratio of a rounded carabiner(or 2) as opposed to 2 3/4" webbing loops if you fall on the same knot a few times without switching up the impact points every now and then. just my $0.02 feel free to educate me

its fine ... any rope (or belay loop) in good condition will handle the forces just fine ... ropes dont break

despite all the pontificating and mumbo jumbo ... this is the most relevant document on the matter

theuiaa.org/upload_area/fil…

as to "cross loading" ... there a reason why you use TWO opposed lockers

for where this application is most commonly used .. ie, top roping ... the forces involved are absolutely minimal

even on lead i challenge anyone here to tell me how two properly locked carabiners will fail

;)

Last post on this topic and then I shut up and go climb for a few weeks....but can't resist a few last words to BearBreeder here....

1. As for "pontificating", seems you are wearing red shoes and a pointy hat on this thread as well as any....

2. That UIAA doc you cite is not exactly a ringing endorsement for using biners. It essentially says "Don't do it, but if you're dumb enough to do this, at least use double lockers"...

3. Don't care about top-ropers or glacier walkers. Outside the scope of argument here and "Ther gonna die" anyway

4. A point not in the UIAA doc and one lost on many (including yourself) is that even with opposed double lockers, you can still cross load the gates. They are still cross-loaded between the belay loop and rope -just oppositely loaded. Only safety benefit is you now have two gate pins between you and death instead of one.

5. Seems pretty clear to me that the few seconds (maybe) of time saving is not worth the additional risk (however "small" it may be)....but to each his own

its THAT simple

;)

(couldn't resist the plagiarism)

wivanoff wrote:I personally wouldn't lead tied in like that. That said, page 30 of "The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques" (Revised Edition) by Nigel Shepherd shows tying in exactly as you describe. I've seen it in other published sources, too. I've seen groups use a carabiner tiein for TR. Some people who tie into the middle of the rope with an Alpine Butterfly clip in with a locking 'biner or two. Let me ask you this: How do people tie in at gyms that have "auto belay" devices like Trublue? autobelay.com/trublue-auto-… It's with a locking carabiner clipped to the belay loop. IMO, "best practice" is direct tie in with the rope. Are you gunna die from this? I doubt it. I bet it's just fine for top roping or following - especially if you use two carabiners. Edit: Now we'll wait for all the "me too" posts. LOL

When it comes to auto belay devices you should still be clipping that biner through both tie in loops and this is OK to have a metal (non dynamic) piece in your system is because those systems don't actually arrest your fall, they simply decelerate you which requires exponentially less force.

chefMatt wrote: When it comes to auto belay devices you should still be clipping that biner through both tie in loops and this is OK to have a metal (non dynamic) piece in your system is because those systems don't actually arrest your fall, they simply decelerate you which requires exponentially less force.

My questions were rhetorical to get the OP to think and arrive at proper conclusions on his own. To respond to your statement, let's see what one manufacturer writes...

TruBlue Autobelay instruction manual page 20:

"NEVER CLIMB WITHOUT BEING CORRECTLY ATTACHED
Ensure the carabiner is attached to belay loop of the
harness and the latch is fully closed and the gate engaged
before starting to climb. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death."

Mark Pilate wrote:Last post on this topic and then I shut up and go climb for a few weeks....but can't resist a few last words to BearBreeder here.... 1. As for "pontificating", seems you are wearing red shoes and a pointy hat on this thread as well as any.... 2. That UIAA doc you cite is not exactly a ringing endorsement for using biners. It essentially says "Don't do it, but if you're dumb enough to do this, at least use double lockers"... 3. Don't care about top-ropers or glacier walkers. Outside the scope of argument here and "Ther gonna die" anyway 4. A point not in the UIAA doc and one lost on many (including yourself) is that even with opposed double lockers, you can still cross load the gates. They are still cross-loaded between the belay loop and rope -just oppositely loaded. Only safety benefit is you now have two gate pins between you and death instead of one. 5. Seems pretty clear to me that the few seconds (maybe) of time saving is not worth the additional risk (however "small" it may be)....but to each his own its THAT simple ;) (couldn't resist the plagiarism)

1. im not the one screaming dont do it unlike others here ... im saying simply if you do it, use 2 opposed lockers

2. the UIAA recognizes, unlike you, that not every climbing situation is "ideal" ... they went through and indicated what configuration they thought would be "safe" ... they recognize, unlike you, the reality of certain climbing situations ... for example, autobelays, in the modern climbing world or glacier travel where the middle person clips in

3. obviously you dont, but then top rope, auto belays and glacier travel are the biggest uses of this application

4. explain to me how two properly opposed lockers will break ... even if crossload ... in fact id like to see any documented case where two properly opposed lockers both broke in a climbing situation .... THINK for a moment ... are you someone who uses a gridlock in fear of belay biners broken from crossloading? ... i bet u are

5. thats your judgement ... everyone else can make their OWN decision ... theres enough screw ups with experienced people tying in normally (read every bowline "accident") ... that i wouldnt be shouting about more "risk" of people clipping in 2 opposed lockers

i hope people arent going off about the "risk" of 2 opposed lockers if they arent wearing helmets all the time (which is one of the best things you can do to prevent head trauma) or tying in with bowlines (of which there does seem to be more accidents, of course its all people tying in improperly with em)

im assuming the same people will go off about not using the silent partner for leading with its two locking biners =P



it really IS that simple

;)

Don't be lazy, spend the extra 30 seconds to tie in. When I see people doing what you describe I head to the other side of the cliff because I assume they have no idea what they are doing and I don't want to be responsible when they mess up.

Bear feeder-please post a pic. The way you ignore what I said and argue around me make me think you may be my ex wife

(I'm on the road on my iPhone with Autocorrect sorry for the name change)

Bear feeder-please post a pic. The way you ignore what I said and argue around me make me think you may be my ex wife

(I'm on the road on my iPhone with Autocorrect sorry for the name change)

Mark Pilate wrote:Bear feeder-please post a pic. The way you ignore what I said and argue around me make me think you may be my ex wife (I'm on the road on my iPhone with Autocorrect sorry for the name change)

whine whine whine ... i thought that you already posted your last post

reduced to ex-wives now eh

;)

I often just clove hitch to the end of the rope. It work really well when I'm falling all over my project. It's nice cause I can just unclip it after tighting the hitch so much.