Antidepressants and climbing
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One of my regular climbing partners recently started antidepressants. They find that they have a much better lead head on them. |
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I understand there is substantial scientific debate about whether antidepressants are effective at all in their primary purpose, e.g. this article |
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Timothy.Klein wrote: Modern SSRIs have a pretty low side effect profile, particularly if you find one that fits your body (see above statement).On some people, and some modern anti-depressants are even modern SSRI's, many more are biphasic. So we have some overlap in our discussions, but they are apparently different discussions. I'm beginning to wonder how much you actually know. Regardless, in any shoes, I'd be more careful about dispensing such overly broad advice. You didn't even see a diagnosis for the dude. ...a dude who is counting weed as an antidepressant. (!!! RED LIGHT !!!) Sidebar: (And the OP may be trolling - i actually hope so, as being a troll sucks less than being depressed, just like faking suicide sucks less than succeeding at it. But I'm treating/discussing this as a serious thing.) But I digress... Man oh man, that's a broad brush you paint with - and when that happens, the details look poor from any elevation below 10k feet. Skitch- see a doctor. The comorbid conditions frequently associated with anhedonia can be pretty serious ones, but luckily, many have a strong physiological basis and if they are the cause, might present an effective fix. |
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skitch: Get thee to a professional. We on Mountain Project would love to help, and we have lots of ideas, some with lots of merit. But we're climbers, not mental health professionals. |
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Skitch- |
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Lucy in the Sky with Dragon cams...always sets me straight when the give-a-shitter is getting run down...SERIOUSLY. I wonder what kind of research has been done regarding its affects on those suffering from anhedonia? It has a way of making EVERYTHING and NOTHING engaging. |
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Mr Clean wrote:Lucy in the Sky with Dragon cams...always sets me straight when the give-a-shitter is getting run down...SERIOUSLY. I wonder what kind of research has been done regarding its affects on those suffering from anhedonia? It has a way of making EVERYTHING and NOTHING engaging.Quite a bit of research with depression or cognitive issues, actually and quite a bit more has been done with pizza toppings. And research shows it can be pretty effective in certain situations. Google is your friend if you want to know more. Grob, Groff, Danforth, etc - names you might want to add to searches. Erowid.com is a great place to start. But I'm not aware of much specifically dealing with anhedonia. Perhaps because one must beware that psychotropics can have some pretty negative consequences for people with underlying mental health issues, most particularly schizo-effective disorders, which are commonly co-morbid with anhedonia. So I imagine that specific reasearch is more or less contraindicated due to heath liabilities. I have no idea what the liability would be for triggering florid schizophrenia in a pseudo-stable person might be... but I imagine the board would probably not approve. Most such modern studies are done as end-of-life studies. If the anhedonia diagnosis is valid, then there is an increased risk there. In other words, seeing a doc would be a better idea... than experimentation on one's own. A bad trip isn't "I think I can fly." A Bad trip is "This will never end otherwise, and I think I understand now what i have to do." Bad trips suck for some folks. I done babysitted too many people in po' shape to think that flying solo is OK when they are starting in a bad place. Totally "two thumbs down" without help. |
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I think drugs are bad. |
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kevin neville wrote:He/she can prescribe an SSRI, which is where a psychiatrist would start anyway.this is the problem with most psychiatrists. drugs are bandaids. |
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Hope you have insurance and plan to forever, most of those drugs are "take em for the rest of your life and up the dosage until you are a zombie" kinda drugs... If you go that route you'll end up on mood stabilizers, some meth based antidepressant, an every night you'll take a horse sized sleeping pill to get to bed... ride that roller coaster everyday over and over. Your life should be fulfilling and exciting... I'd start with a change, not a pill. |
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Rohan de Launey wrote:Hope you have insurance and plan to forever, most of those drugs are "take em for the rest of your life and up the dosage until you are a zombie" kinda drugs... If you go that route you'll end up on mood stabilizers, some meth based antidepressant, an every night you'll take a horse sized sleeping pill to get to bed... ride that roller coaster everyday over and over. Your life should be fulfilling and exciting... I'd start with a change, not a pill.Wow... just WOW. Uh - there's the flip side of that overly broad brush. And what do you mean by "meth based antidepressant" ??? |
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I'm quite surprised it took this long, Tony, and this is why I'm quite intentionally painting with that "broad brush." There are a lot of irrational, silly, dangerous views of psych meds out there. And those that hold said views love to tell people that need help that "drugs are bad, mmkay." Or much worse. |
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Timothy.Klein wrote:I'm quite surprised it took this long, Tony, and this is why I'm quite intentionally painting with that "broad brush." There are a lot of irrational, silly, dangerous views of psych meds out there. And those that hold said views love to tell people that need help that "drugs are bad, mmkay." Or much worse.Silly? ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl… Irrational? prnewswire.com/news-release… Dangerous? archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/ar… Christian wrote:If somebody is born with a physical disease with obvious external symptoms, people have no problem understanding and commiserating. If somebody is born with a tendency to depression (also a physical disease in the end) there will always be an ignorant part of the population that thinks they just lack "willpower", whatever that word means.I was responding to someone who said the first thing a psychiatrist would do is prescribe an SSRI. Psychoactive meds should not be the first approach. Do you think a person who finds their blood pressure rising should immediately go on medication? Or should they change their diet and habits first? |
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Going climbing now but I guess it's settled then, three studies and a couple of straw men questions have decisively proven that "drugs are bandaids". |
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They are, mostly. Stop taking the drug, depression comes back. Why would you expect anything different? It's part of the reason why studies are now focusing on relapse rates. |
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Drugs are recommended first and shoved down people's throats because pharmaceutical companies make a lot of money. |
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The question was about drugs. It's tilting at windmills to say anyone is pushing drugs. |
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dmb wrote:. However, one of the studies I just linked shows that mindfulness CBT is just as effective. Why recommend drugs first (which can have drastic side effects), when there are alternatives that are similarly effective?You do understand the difference between "equally effective" and "as "equally likely to be effective," right? That they are not interchangabe for most people? That it depends on the individual, and that any given individual may well respond to one substantially and not the other at all? Emo people - I am betting on CBT and placebo. Bipolars and TBI people - I am betting on chemical intervention first. Schizo-effective disorders - Most certainly go for the chemical trials first. Part of the Placebo effect in most trials likely has much to do with the attention given in the trial, not just the placebo. If you read the 'wellness' studies for people put on a healthcare program, you will see that a majority of the self-reported feeling of increased wellness occurs prior to any medical situation or attention is sought, and that objective and data-oriented measures show no change Vs a control - the people simply "feel better." Remember - depression is self-reported. Lots to say here, but it seems that I could make every other post just correcting broad and frequently misplaced generalizations. I am sure the OP gets the point: See a doc, ask about alternatives, be your own advocate if you can - if you can't take your wife or a loved one who is not in a funk and can advocate for you. Track your feelings and progress. If something is not working within 30 days, try something else. There is a theraputic lag associated with most anti-depressants, almost all with the exception of Ketamine(*1). Ask loved ones to help you evaluate that too. I have family members with MDD and they loose the color in their voice and don't even hold their heads up to talk or make eye contact when they get bad. And they can't see the difference as soon as we can when they start making eye contact, gesticulating, and use vocal tones again... but we notice. Serotonin is one thing people keep talking about, but they seem unaware then, that disorders associated with NE and DA can cause depression too - not just Serotonin. Considering that it is a rather 'minor' neurotransmitters, that's saying something. (*2) And dysfunctions associated with the NE and DA systems in the brain are associated with the second most heritable class of psychiatric conditions (yes, genetic) known. Even those are not the big lifters. And lastly, Am I the only one who has thought to ask about recreationa drug use here? Esp. since the person declaring himself to have a MMD listed dope as an anti-depressant? Any red flags there for anyone but me? One of the most treatment-resistive people I have known with a MDD absolutely refuses to stop her daily use of dope and regular use of whatever else comes up, and she isn't getting better, no matter the approach. Shocking, right? (*1) - still in trials/experimental and not totally understood why this one works. Perhaps Lester's 2012 proposed "inside out" mechanism for the escort of receptors from the cell body interior deserves more active review? (*2) People never seem to talk about it, but Catecholamines and Glutimate do more heavy lifting. GABA, cAMP, and a host of neuromodulators are to be considered as well... Complex stuff man. see a doc. And it's OK to be a skeptic, MOST ESPECIALLY of what people offer you on the net. |