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Archangel

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Found: bowling ball on ass-sling and super hero mask at the base of Archangel.

Please send detailed description and I will return for 6 pack.

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"By David Sahalie
From on the road again"
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QexOuH8GS-Y
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"(three if you include lockers sad decline into dementia)".

LOL!
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
CaptainMo wrote:text book debacle
Only for hand-wringers and control-freaks. The irony is that this took place on public land and the only opinion that counts is that of the land manager. The rest is just hot air. Personally I think the second a bolt is drilled any claim to ethical superiority is lost. What, your rap drilled hole is better than mine (or anyone else's)?

The passive aggression of the climbing community marches on...bitch and moan, bitch and moan, bitch and moan...do nothing...bitch and moan, bitch and moan, bitch and moan.

I'm off to watch more Point Break...livin' the dream Brah!
Charles Vernon · · Colorado megalopolis · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 2,655

Hey CJC, I agree it's a can of worms and one I would normally rather not have anything to do with opening.

The real issue to me, however, is the witch hunt mentality and the vitriol that many have heaped upon Chris--especially from some prominent members of the old guard who I've lost a lot of respect for. The more we learn about the "first ascent" of the route, the more the witch hunt just seems not only entirely unwarranted, but pathetic and ridiculous.

PS--I've stood at the base of the route (such as it is)--hope that's good enough for you.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Charles Vernon wrote: Tony, I think that's beside the point. The point is that if you're putting in a route entirely top-down and installing fixed protection for your own benefit, then you should do so in a way that's reasonable for future leaders at the grade attempting the onsight. "Reasonable for..." still leaves a lot of room for debate and latitude for the FA, but clearly this route falls outside of that. To your point, rap-bolting sport routes is a widely accepted style of route development in many areas, unlike the tactics used here. And yes...if you place an anchor at an relatively arbitrary spot on rappel and fail to even reach that anchor on your highly rehearsed pink-point (instead lowering off at another relatively arbitrary spot)--I would have to agree that calls into question whether you FA'd a route at all.
fully agree. when you decide to put the bit to the wall on rappel you should be ENCOURAGING future climbers to climb the route in the best style that they can, whether that be onsighting it as a sport route, TR'ing it into submission, leading it on gear only, whatever. non-exclusionary. if you didn't have the balls to do it on gear, don't expect others to do so.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Charles Vernon wrote: Tony, I think that's beside the point. =
Its beside your point, but entirely spot-on for mine. Not engaging in the point I present is not the same as disqualifying it.
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Tony B wrote: So what do we say about rap- bolted routes? Are we still required to respect those as a FA precedent, or can we chop them on lead? .
I always say that it is better to chop those eye burning bolts as long as it makes you feel more macho. After all, stoking the ego is pretty rad! Plus, we can always re drill that sucker till it looks like Swiss cheese.

Charles Vernon wrote: Tony, I think that's beside the point. The point is that if you're putting in a route entirely top-down and installing fixed protection for your own benefit, then you should do so in a way that's reasonable for future leaders at the grade attempting the on-sight. .
Too logical the church of the righteous.

This only makes sense if you do not place preeminent importance on your ego. If your ego is really important, making a route for the community does not make sense. It would be much better to make a monstrosity of a route that never gets repeated so that you can repeat the mantra: "I'amma I'amma bad ass, I'amma I'amma bad ass!"

Ego's and ethics are a little like assholes and sphincters; they go hand in hand and everyone feels differently about them.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Charles Vernon · · Colorado megalopolis · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 2,655
Tony B wrote: Its beside your point, but entirely spot-on for mine. Not engaging in the point I present is not the same as disqualifying it.
Tony, with all due respect, I'm not trying to disqualify whatever point you're making. I just fail to see how what's being discussed in this thread calls into question in any way the validity of rap-bolted sport FAs. Seems like another topic entirely (not that there's anything unusual about thread drift). But maybe I'm missing something.
chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

This 'route' sat in Boulder Canyon for 25 years with no second ascent, or even a first really. This isn't the Bachar Yarian.

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
CJC wrote: nobody owes you a goddamn thing. if you don't like it don't climb it. talk about ego...
Right on man, you can either love it or leave it, if you ain't with us you's against us!

So what size ball do you strap and what hero do you roll as?
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Charles Vernon wrote: Tony, with all due respect, I'm not trying to disqualify whatever point you're making. I just fail to see how what's being discussed in this thread calls into question in any way the validity of rap-bolted sport FAs. Seems like another topic entirely (not that there's anything unusual about thread drift). But maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for engaging civilly - I was not intentionally obtuse or obscure.

The point is that if you say that an FA is worth something as a precedent, then you draw lines around what styles based on personal opinions... well, then it's unprincipled and it's hard to get all the kids in the sandbox to agree to a set of rules.
So I propose that you have to apply something broadly and not just according to how you feel.
IE1: Andy Donsons's (a pal of mine, I am not attaching him) ascent of 'The Lion' in Eldo is a good question on that scale of 'validity.' It was a rehearsed headpoint. So can I bolt it?
Does the fact that it does not top out matter? Does it matter if he took the line to the anchor that he rapped in from? Is it less valid if he didn't? Does it matter that this is in Eldo and not Bocan?

Does every bit of rock need to be made into something for mass consumption, or should some discretion be applied wherein you decide: "While I personally do not value the style of the ascent, there is other rock, so I'll go do that instead." (???)

IE2: OK, closer to my example - if someone rap bolts a route and then can't finish it, and makes it to a lower point on a redpoint (works the route) and then tosses another bolt in to call it an anchor, can I chop the whole thing if I can climb it to the top? Does the placement of a bolt at the FA parties 'lower-off' point make it more valid than in the Archangel case?

I guess both actual parties to the climb in question (including Chris W, who I also consider a friend) arrived at a conclusion similar to mine, if it matters. Perhaps for different reasons, but they have seemed to agree. Now, mind you that I'm not running around with a noose over this, but I happen to agree with him that it was a mistake.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
J Q wrote: I always say that it is better to chop those eye burning bolts as long as it makes you feel more macho. After all, stoking the ego is pretty rad! Plus, we can always re drill that sucker till it looks like Swiss cheese. Too logical the church of the righteous. This only makes sense if you do not place preeminent importance on your ego. If your ego is really important, making a route for the community does not make sense. It would be much better to make a monstrosity of a route that never gets repeated so that you can repeat the mantra: "I'amma I'amma bad ass, I'amma I'amma bad ass!" Ego's and ethics are a little like assholes and sphincters; they go hand in hand and everyone feels differently about them.
The irony of you talking about motivations and then the ego state of somebody that you do not know (me) is not lost here.
You might want to look into the definition of arrogance.
And if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that b*&^% up and wear it until you need a resole.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

i don't find the lion to really be comparable here. andy didn't chicken out and add bolts, and then pound his chest about it. if somebody climbed a logical extension or variation (not sure if you could squeeze some contrived right hand variation between the lion and rainbow wall, but hey, it is eldo.....) and bolted this section, what would make it not legit?

Charles Vernon · · Colorado megalopolis · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 2,655

Tony, I don't have time to address all of that. I will say that I disagree that it "matters" that Chris and Thom now "agree," because Chris was clearly browbeaten into that conclusion--in addition to being a nice guy who's not interested in controversy.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

FWIW Charles- I agree about Chris - and the 'controversy' issue is part of how I came to my conclusion. My 'vote' on official issues with respect to fixed anchors when it comes to policy and action in the non-profit LCO type world is "do nothing" unless you are sure it won't rile people.
Clearly, people were riled here and it wasn't just Ken Nichols.
That's part of the principle that it does not matter who started the war, it's just best not have one. Inaction rarely starts controversy. I stated that I thought in cases like this, that inaction would have been best.

Tank Evans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 135

Hey do any of you have the number to Rock and Resole? I can't seem to find it anywhere

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I disagree. I find that it's far more valuable to knit as opposed to cross stitching. The former is more of a utility and can be employed to create functional items. Where the latter is more of a craft that has no real use at all other than being potentially fun to look at. That said, if one can find the time to do both regularly, I would highly recommend it. But if one had to choose, knitting is the better choice as it affords the opportunity to create something that is both aesthetically pleasing and functional. Furthermore; potatoes.

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"Furthermore; potatoes.".

Finally a solid and sound post!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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