College climbing/mountaineering clubs

Hey folks, I'm trying to gather some information about the workings of college climbing and mountaineering clubs.

At the University of Wisconsin, our club maintains an email list and an inventory of gear which is purchased from membership fees. Trips are organized through emails and at weekly club meetings. Club leadership is purely organizational - there are no assigned trip leaders, with ratings, certifications or permissions. While some of our members have WFA/WFR ratings and one or two may have AMGA certifications, none of these are required to go on a trip. Similarly, the club offers periodic clinics on anchor building, sport/trad/aid climbing, and mountaineering, but taking these has not been a prerequisite to going on a trip. Recently though, there has been some concern about what all this could mean in terms of liability for the University and people involved with the club. So we're trying to figure out if we need to implement some sort of safety/training/certification system, and if we do, what would be a good way to do it.

Do you (or did you used to) belong to/know about a college/university affiliated club? Does/did this club have specific safety/training/certification requirements for members to go on trips? How do you think this (existence or lack of such systems) impacted safety on club outings?

Any relevant information would be helpful. Thanks!

I was treasurer of a Mountaineering Club. We do pretty much the same thing as you guys do. We do require liability sign offs. We charge a fee to rent gear (semesterly) however we do not charge to go on the trips. I think this is a key fact that keeps you out of trouble.

First, I am not a lawyer. I did get involved with a university outdoor club back in the early '80s, to the extent of leading a couple trips and teaching a few people the rudiments of climbing. I don't think AMGA existed at the time.

College and university clubs have been doing this sort of thing for years, with about the level of professional certification (or lack thereof) that you describe. I'm pretty sure that the University of Wisconsin would have said something by now if any real liability issues existed. If your club charges a fee for any activities or courses, then your club would probably face the same liability issues as any commercial organization, like a guide service or outfitter. If your club is treating its activities as cooperative ventures among friends/acquaintances, then I think it would be a lot harder for an injured party to hold your club or the University of Wisconsin liable. I would suggest making it very clear to everyone who takes part in your club's activities that said activities are a joint venture among fellow students, and not a service provided by the university. I would also be very careful about collecting money for any of your club's activities, or for the use of the club's equipment. Any money that changes hands should be exact reimbursement for identifiable expenses, and should be dealt with by the people who incur those expenses, without going through a trip leader or club officer. Collecting any kind of rental fee for the use of your club's equipment is probably not a good idea.

That's pretty much the way we did things way back then. It's a little hard to say how effective our strategy was, since nobody got killed or seriously hurt on any trips while I was involved.

Thanks for the responses, Alex and Mark.

We have liability waivers for all club members, and we do not charge for gear rentals or trip participation. The only expenses incurred (gas, food, permits) are generally split between the people doing the trip. So I guess that's a good thing.

Gokul wrote:So we're trying to figure out if we need to implement some sort of safety/training/certification system, and if we do, what would be a good way to do it.

NOOO!!! Don't do it!

Tom Mulholland wrote: NOOO!!! Don't do it!

It's not up to us. We were talking with the advisor for HMC during last week's meeting. It seems that the legal department has latched onto this. I'd gander that's why Gokul is trying to learn about precedent with similar clubs, to see what options we have.

And where are you these days, Tom? I thought you left the greatest cheese producing state on earth.

We did some killer trips with the CU Alpine Club back in 99-03. Not sure if they're still around in the same capacity or if it morphed into something else.

Mostly it involved renting a couple of 15 person vans from the school, loading them with beer, people, and climbing gear, and heading out to the desert for a few days at a time.

Helped to found an "Outing club" back in the 80s -- mostly caving and climbing. Seniors led trips for everyone else -- tried to teach rudiments of safety, top-rope set-up, etc. In hindsight, it was an accident waiting to happen. And I was around a few close calls -- head-first top-rope pendulum swings, exploding cave packs, rock falls, near misses in the van, etc. We had waivers.

Later on, I was the volunteer faculty advisor for the same club and led climbing and caving trips about 15 times a year (for about 7 years). Would send students on climbing clinics held by local guides and cave rescue training sessions.

Eventually decided that the liability was too much (waivers notwithstanding). Advised the school to hire a FT outdoor education person to run the newly built indoor wall, take over club, teach PE classes in outdoor education disciplines. Very shortly thereafter, I moved on professionally. Not sure what they're up to these days.

Current school does it right: FT outdoor educator (with AMGA and Wilderness EMT training) runs trips, tends wall, tends ropes course, maintains huge equipment rental fleet, etc. No "club" at all -- it's a university-run program with their own dedicated van.

Overall, as an advisor, I found the rapid turn-over of student leadership to be the biggest problem -- along with maintaining a consistent student attitude about safety.

There was ( is?) a huge student group at the University of Iowa for many decades, run by the Iowa Mountaineers social climbing group led and well organized by Jim and John Ebert. Thousands upon thousands of students got PE credit for a 3 day weekend of climbing and camping at Devils Lake State Park back before the mid 90's when the IM disbanded after over 60 years. Their belay safety training was pretty impressive, with anchored hip belays as the starting standard for all who chose to rock climb, before using any devices. Sadly Jim died in his early 60's of a heart attack just a year or so ago. I have no idea if the university is still operating a similar course or club on their own these days, but the old Iowa Mountaineers group was legendary for its outings and climbs on many continents with many records for the most climbers on a summit in one day for several mountaineering routes they did.

Peter Franzen wrote:We did some killer trips with the CU Alpine Club back in 99-03. Not sure if they're still around in the same capacity or if it morphed into something else.

It's definitely still around, but is sometimes more of a drinking and sport climbing organization. CU Alpine is technically referred to as "The Alpine Club at CU", and the designation "at" means that it will be harder for someone to sue the school for something we do. Trip leaders or a club president could still face liability charges, but they have a lot less money to go after than the University.

We advertise ourselves as specifically NOT guides, and that we are not here to officially teach anything or keep you out of danger. Even if some members are AMGA certified, anything we teach is not a "guiding service," just friendly advice.

The University also has an "Outdoor Program" where they do really guide students, and as a result, the students pay a lot of money to have a staff chaperon come along that forbids lead climbing, as well as drinking.

I was in a university climbing club for a couple of years. Basically, for club-run trips, the rule was not to do something that you hadn't been trained in and verified by a member of the club exec. For example, lead belaying, setting up a toprope anchor, cleaning a route etc.

For simple things like lead belaying you could do it on the trip (i.e. they'd demo it for you, then you'd do a belay with them on backup). For more complex stuff, they'd run a few courses throughout the year on various subjects (anchoring, rescue, etc.) that people could attend if they wanted. Those would be held at a local gym, crag or other workable location.

We were fortunate to have a very experienced climbing/rescue instructor (i.e. someone who had trained a fair number of other instructors) affiliated with the club, since he was the one who founded it originally and liked to keep involved.

I think if you want to limit liability, certifications and such aren't the way to go (think: you're now responsible for your certifications even outside of a club context). Just try to make a bona fide, demonstrable effort to promote safe climbing and provide the necessary skills to your members. This also opens the door for your newer members to get more hands-on practice in the presence of experienced climbers, which is ultimately better for safety in the long run, since you'll be able to pick out minor flaws and provide extra tips as they go.

We're been working with many staff from university outdoor groups who offer climbing with AMGA training and certification for their staff in the Single Pitch Instructor Program
This curriculum and skills set seem like the minimum that any top-rope site manager should know in regard to risk management, technical systems and climbing pedagogy. This is the same curriculum and skills that I learned in '85 in Virginia as part of my college education before becoming a full-time guide.

Not a lot of help here, but if you want to do a bit of legwork and find a contact to talk to, I know Purdue has the "Purdue Outing Club". I was never a member while I was there, but the guy that taught me to lead climb was. I know POC did a lot more than climbing, but they did make somewhat frequent trips down to RRG.

I restarted the University of Arizona climbing club a few years ago and was concerned over the same issues you face. Just make sure when you teach people you let them know your experience and make it a point to tell them that you climb at your own risk when doing club events. If the school club board wants you to make a liability waiver than what you can do is find a law student to help you otherwise don't waste your time! Our board did not care and told me that once students are off campus they are not liable for club events.

As far as the certification thing don't bother...My club had over a 100 members at one point and keeping track of that is hard to do. Instead, just do club meetings and go over something new every time that people can learn. Once people go outside they do whatever they want..

There have been several good responses so far, but since this is my professional field I feel like I could weigh in. First, there is a correct distinction between a university "club" or "student organization" and a "outdoor program". Sometimes the two operate independently of one another, and other times they are fused via a faculty/staff advisor or other funding models. If Gokul is talking about the Hoofers (a long standing student organization there at Wisconsin) then they fall under student organization status.

Traditionally, there have been several ways that courts have looked at the relationship between institutions and their students. Some have adopted a view that because the student organization is officially recognized by the university, therefore exists a "special relationship" which triggers the possibility of negligence and liability claims. Other courts have taken the view that universities are not to become the protectors of students, that students are adults who can take care of themselves (Bradshaw v. Rawlings, 1975). What actually creates a "special relationship" can vary from state to state, but indeed most universities have tended to rely on the findings from Bradshaw. That doesn't always get them out of the weeds though.

The only case I think of off the bat is Mintz v. State (1975) that involved two students drowning on a canoe trip. I believe the university was found not-liable because to some preventative steps they took.

Liability waivers are probably a good idea, but waivers are only one small piece of an extremely complex puzzle that is "proving negligence". Most institutions have a general global waiver which attempts to waive the rights to sue the university of almost any and all activities, i.e. if you get too drunk and fall off the frat balcony.

In a case where someone is injured, it has been the case any combination of the institution, the organization, and specific individuals have been involved in litigation. Although certifications may increase the safety and risk management practices of Hoofer trips, they could open up specific individuals to claims of negligence. Here in lies an issue with student organizations - whereas full-time and student employed trip leaders may be protected by the university because they are acting in an "official capacity", student leaders of clubs may not enjoy the same protections.

Typically most universities should have some administrative professionals in the student org office that can handle these types of concerns alongside university legal counsel. However, some universities are hesitant to wade into this sometimes because of the "special relationship" issue. Put quite simply, the more the university tells a student organization what to do (inside first amendment frameworks), the greater the potential for there to exist a special relationship.

Aside from the issue of whether universities are held liable, looking at individual liability may also be something the Hoofers should look at. This deals with your standard questions of duty of care, reasonable persons, foreseeable/inherent risk, causation, etc. You will not find a panacea or silver bullet here - all things legal tend to play out based on a number of scenarios.

If I were the club's faculty/staff advisor, I would first say, do what the university wants you to do (get waivers if they want, go talk to the student org FT staff), follow what you have established in your constitution and bylaws, encourage students to seek out advanced training to benefit their personal and professional development, but do not make it mandatory to receive a WFR, AMGA, CWA, PCIA, ACA, LNT, or whatever. If you wish - executive members of the club could draft safety guidelines for various outings (for example - only teach or use the UBUS belay method), but remember, whatever standard or practice you set, you MUST follow that, or you open yourself up to potential claims of liability.

PTR had it right - the turnover in student leadership is one reason not to require the certifications. For a self-governed student organization to handle that without the direct influence of a FT advisor would be very difficult. Certs are expensive and time consuming. He also alluded to the general history and direction that outdoor recreation is going on campuses (traditionally a rag tag hiking and drinking club pushed more in a direction of an official university program with full-time staff).

Full disclosure: I am the full-time Coordinator of the Outdoor Program at Colorado State University. Prior to that I led the Outdoor Adventures program at Missouri State University, as well as served as the president of the Mountaineering Society (a club) there when I was an undergrad. My master's degree is in Higher Education and Student Affairs, but I'm not a lawyer.

Dartmouth has an old and well established "Mountaineering" clum (DMC). It's a student run club, that's part of the Dartmouth Outdoors Club, definitely has adult/staff over-sight. They might be a good resource.

Harvard also had (has?) an active club where the members were able to get sufficient organization to put up new routes on Mt. Huntington, etc. Pretty head stuff. UCLA also had an outdoor club that had some pretty well known members but was defunct by the time I went to school there, sadly. It was actually the death of one of its members that caused the group to fold.

Here in California, waivers are a pretty effective tool to create insulation from liability, but that is probably due in part to the fact that there is strong body of case law that, I believe in some instances incorrectly, creates an assumption of risk doctrine for all manner of outdoor recreation. It could be that if you draft your waiver to include a provision clarifying that the university is has no oversight, relationship with, etc., the organization that that may solve some problems. The biggest problem you have, however, is that climbing is a risky activity and that, while most climbers recognize and accept that, family when dealing with the death or serious injury of a loved one sometimes look to someone else to blame. Even if you prevail, lawsuits cost an arm and a leg.

Andy, thanks for taking the time to step through all that. Very helpful in laying out many of the angles.

Gokul was in fact referring to the Hoofer Mountaineering Club, which is very much a club and not a program (and not even really a student club).

We've had a liability waiver for about the last 10-15 years, but try to avoid too much in the way of rules. It's a tough balancing act, that I'm sure we'll be asked to rethink every 10-15 years.

Morgan, Hoofers has definitely looked at Dartmouth at several key points over the decades!