Archangel

[yawn]

wake me up when something new is brought to this same old argument

This truly is the forum for the largely uninformed. Posts abound from those who don't climb on gear, who don't develop new climbs, and who've never placed or replaced a bolt in their careers.

Seeing as how these are pretty much my bread and butter activites for my days off work, it's a tempting proposition to jump into the fray here and "tell it like it is".

Realistically, it sounds like more fun to go see some live music with a really, really attractive woman, stay up too late, and go earn the money to buy that snazzy set of Fixe Aliens I've been putting off for too long in the morning.

Headpointing is not and should not be correlated with bold, ground-up climbing, that much is dead on. Any top down inspection changes the nature of the eventual first ascent, and anyone blind to that is welcome to purchase a rack, strap on a bowling ball, and sack up to go exploring. Adventure is not a gym activity.

Jake Jones wrote:You guys wanna do some blow?

I'm definitely buying you a beer if you ever get out to western Colorado, something about your sense of humour cracks me up.

all dis fo 100ft of rock!?! good lawd.

If this route was originally put up in the manner that folks are saying it was, it introduces way too many grey areas for me to really get excited and argue about. But I will say what I always say when people are arguing about bolting:

By far, for me, the most interesting thing I can do when climbing is to approach a route that has been un-altered by humans, climb it from bottom to top with just what myself and my partner can carry, and walk away from it with everything we brought, leaving it still unaltered by humans. I hope the folks that don't share this sentiment will think about it, and maybe, one day, share it.

It should be noted that I am happy to clip bolts sometimes, and I'm happy that sport climbing exists, but climbing on real rock without someone's pre-installed infrastructure is so much more satisfying.

meanwhile the FA and the guy who re-bolted the rig are all good as of last week....

Was wondering how to step into this circle and start jerkin' it....but have nothing meaningful to add other than +1 to Locker's post a few pages back

Now its Saturday morning....I'll go stir up controversy out at the crag (I may French free on a piece when no one is looking and claim a red-point)

Jim Bridwell added a bolt to a climb in J-Tree called Band Saw. It has a really high first bolt and the landing pretty much sucks. Bridwells bolt made the climb much safer but was it the right thing to do? Apparently not because the locals chopped it.

I led the route before and after that bolt. My truth is, pre bolt was much more satisfying. It took a while to get my JT chops, to lead scary, sometimes dangerous runouts. But I climbed better for the experience. When I had the appropriate JT time, both mental and physical, I jumped on Band Saw, (which is only 10c but lead it yourself before you judge) accepting the challenge for what it was. After the redpoint my buddy John says "good lead".

That's what it's about. You and your climbing partners challenging YOUR limits. Pushing the mental and physical side of YOUR game, not changing the climb to fit your current limits.

If you add bolts to Bacher/Yerian (or any climb) and get a red point, you didn't actually do it. You've created a new climb. Is that what you want, take someone's climb and make it your own? Now that sounds like ego to me.

For those of you that have never put up a new route, hand bolted a line or bolted on lead you need to let the grown ups talk. There is no ownership, it's all about respect. For yourself and those that came before you. A new climb takes hours to put up and forty or fifty bucks in bolts, hangers and chain. When you use YOUR time and YOUR money to put up a few routes contact me and I'll entertain your arguments about this FA thing being all ego.

In this particular case I don't really have a dog in the race. The climb wasn't finished and maybe it was done in poor style. Sounds like a local issue to me.

Speaking of local issues, some places are OK with bolting someone else's line, other places not so much. Just ask Bridwell.

The bowling ball, mask thing is moronic. Sorry.....

Brad

rockvoyager wrote:If you add bolts to Bacher/Yerian (or any climb) and get a red point you didn't actually do them. Is that what you want, to create your own climb?

if an FA doesn't actually own the rock then it seems a bit of a mute point to bitch&freak no?

i'm not trying to stir any pots or advocate anarchy just conversation (and it's raining) I've got no problem with an FA owns-the-route-rights-rule but hysteria seems a bit x-treme

"to clip or not to clip" -perhaps it's a route with a Birdwell twist -or not, does it matter more than having fun climbing it? -cheers!

Locker thank you so very much

OK perhaps we should discuss the relative potentials of the word 'moot' before proceeding LOL!

dude I think your thread is gone
*poof*

get your questions answered?

Kirra

Perhaps it's a failing on my part but I love the history of those sports that become lifestyles. Watch "Dogtown and Zboys" and "Riding Giants". I don't surf or skateboard but I loved those movies and the historical similarities to early climbing are amazing.

The fact is over 99 percent of all climbs being done today were put up by someone else. If not for these "someone's" there wouldn't be climbing as we know it.

You're right. Climbing is all about challenge, fun, hanging out with your buds and the amazing places we go. In my opinion a nod to the past and a thank you under your breath for that amazing climb you just did is a small price.

Brad

Down Kirra, down

rockvoyager wrote:In my opinion a nod to the past and a thank you under your breath for that amazing climb you just did is a small price. Brad

+1 -sometimes I say it outloud

buff whatsup!

K

I'm in Nor Cal. Hotter'n crap and dry as a bone. Climbing tomorrow but rain sounds really good.

B

rockvoyager wrote:K I'm in Nor Cal. Hotter'n crap and dry as a bone. Climbing tomorrow but rain sounds really good. B

B sorry to hear- we got plenty wish I could oblige. I hope things get better soon in Cali, got to protect the redwoods & what's left of the forests.

will do a CaliRado raindance 4u cheers~

Rockvoyager - The bowling ball thing may be sophomoric, but its not moronic. My opinions on these issues are not as linear as some, but where to you draw the line for getting "credit" for climbing the route? In your argument, is it just the in-situ pro that matters? What about the type/amount of pro, clothing/gear worn or carried? I understand that it is the risk to life and limb that many feel gives the climb "meaning and worth" but how you separate that from ego gets a bit dodgy.

rockvoyager wrote: The bowling ball, mask thing is moronic. Sorry..... Brad

I doubt you have ever climbed with a bowling ball around your ass, and I know you haven't tried it with a superhero mask. Who the hell are you to be dissing my ethic? This is a sacred Ethic, and it is the only way to preserve the rock for future generations.

What's more moronic: Wearing a mask and a bowling ball strapped around your ass to make the climb more challenging, or rap bolting run-outs and only getting 3/4 of the route before giving up?

We may have differing opinions based on our indoctrination.

J Q wrote: I doubt you have ever climbed with a bowling ball around your ass, and I know you haven't tried it with a superhero mask.

Anyone who hasn't needs to let the grown-ups talk. Respect, not ownership!

Neil Armstrong and Bruce Lee retro-bolted one of my routes but I still chopped their bolts. RESPECT!