Archangel

JLP wrote:Since most of you have proven incapable of processing what is going on here, let me try to simplify everything into ONE simple issue - the primary one, as I see it. You rap drill an anchor out in the middle of nowhere. Down lower, you manage to free a stretch of rock by whatever means turns your crank. However, you never make your anchor because the stretch above proves to be too hard, and you do not place an anchor at the end of what you completed - you only lower off a piece of gear at your high point (which falls out a few month later). Have you developed a route?

You created a shit show and you are now free to take your abstract absurdity and force it on to the rest of climbers. Remember, your ego is on the line here, so if someone else has a different idea about how to climb that rock say no. It is permanent, and every other person should have to climb that little section of rock just like your special little self did. Remember, those who were born first win!

I have recently found an awesome trad area (all withing the range of the average chuffer) and am proceeding to put up about five routes every weekend. I have been doing all of this route development while wearing a superhero mask and a five pound bowling ball strapped to my ass. The routes only go 3/4 of the way up because I am using a gym rope and I am easily tired. This is the only legitimate style at this crag. I will be forming the ethics police and they will be arresting climbers who attempt to climb at this crag without a bowling ball and a mask.

Forcing others to your ridiculous abstract "ethic": Priceless!

You dorks really need to get a life. Chop it, don't chop it. Does anyone really give a shit? Wank on.

Wow Dave!
A comment like: "how screwed we would all be if we had let the early trads and their confused ethics continue to ruin the sport..."
and looking at your profile "Likes to climb gym & sport" leads me to believe you could care less of where this sport came from, and all the work the pioneers of the sport gave to us.

So what if every other route is sport. We are not talking about a whole "area" like say Shelf Road. It is Boulder Canyon, where sport & trad peacefully exist side by side.
I have two nice trad routes at the first tier of the Avalon, where every other route is sport. Should my trad lines be sport?

As far as Rifle & Maple goes. That is another discussion. I do enjoy Rifle for all it has to offer. It is great! But I will say, yeah, it's a bit of a shit show. For example: Climbers wanted to open up more climbing (was it a year ago or something...) and when the people came to review it (was it the DOW, or whatever) to determine if they would allow it, they saw all of the fixed draws in the canyon. The decision was made right then. No way! This is coming from a old friend of the family who was one of the people. But that is a whole different discussion...

Good points made by climbnplay & David Barbour!

Funny how some people think ethics/standards are worth nothing. Shit you people would not like it over in Elbsandstein Germany where I just was. You can only climb summits, no massifs. You can't use chalk. You can't use metal gear.

The future is dumbing down the sport. Glad we still have young climbers like Hayden Kennedy out there!

As far as CW goes. I don't know him. He seems like a great guy. It is sad that it all back fired on him, after doing research with so many local climbers (who have done much development in the canyon...) But I still hold my opinion about the retro bolting, even know I could care less about that route or that wall.

A lot (like hundreds and hundres) of face routes went down in CT this exact same way... TR'ing the living daylights out of it, maybe a few marginal pieces were placed on rap/TR, then a headpoint was eventaually done once the route was ingrained on TR. The other way was to TR the daylights out of it and then just solo it, maybe use a taped or bungied down hook as a piece of gear.

The traditional climbers have since demanded that these route, whether first done as a solo or as some TR be locked away never to be opened to the general public with the use of fixed gear. What makes it even worse here is the bold actors back in the 80's made it their mission to do every conceivable line on every cliff they could find (in an obsessive manner) leaving entire cliffs locked as solos or TR's with zero middle ground. There are many similarities I can draw between this route and the way things were done here in CT for decades. Ultimately there are routes that are historically significant and MUST be preserved there are others like this that clearly were mixed going up and an updating seems appropriate. It's a gradient of course from one side to the other generally speaking.

I don't see what happened here as really that bad. Could it have been handled better, sure. Was it a tragedy hardly. If it was that good and that bold it would likely have been climbed. I think Long and others are just blowing their whistles to try to help preserve their past, and that's important too esp in times like these when there's change going on like we have here in CT.

Wow, finding myself agreeing with Capt Mo.

Cor, I do have respect for the old routes and style. I am 43 and started climbing when i was 15, so I've done plenty of trad and run-out slabs bolted on lead.

Here's an analogy: Muscle cars from the 70s have crazy style, lots of balls, but are really, really unsafe and inefficient by today's standards. Imagine if the roads were filled cars with technology from the 70s for some vague ethical reason. There would be thousands more deaths every year, not to mention pollution.

It seems that if there is a gray area in the spectrum of what should be retro-bolted, a rap-bolted and pinned, Tr'd to death, not done to the anchors, 25 years with no 2nd ascent, and the rest of the wall is sport climbs.... then this would be the one to bolt.

edit to add: and my issue with the mentality of the Supertopoans is that to them, if the FA, as JQ sa eloquently put, wore a bowling ball on their ass and super hero mask, we should too, all the time, on every single route put up in this era.

Cor wrote: Funny how some people think ethics/standards are worth nothing. .

Now you see, I might think your ethics in this situation are worth nothing, but my bowling ball around the ass while wearing a super-hero mask ethic is the tits.

Ethics are illogical outside of the ideology that espouses them.

I don't ascribe to your ideology and thus I think your ethics are dog shit.

You don't ascribe to my ideology and thus you think my ethics are dog shit.

Do you really believe your ideology has the monopoly on ethics?

Am I the only one who thinks there's a big, maybe fundamental difference between a headpoint on all natural gear, and one that relies on bolts and fixed pins?

David Sahalie wrote:I am 43 and started climbing when i was 15, so I've done plenty of trad and run-out slabs bolted on lead... edit to add: and my issue with the mentality of the Supertopoans is that to them, if the FA, as JQ sa eloquently put, wore a bowling ball on their ass and super hero mask, we should too, all the time, on every single route put up in this era.

You're 43 huh? You come across as far more immature than that. Pity that you appeared to learn nothing of ethics from your trad upbringing.

And BTW, another great (i.e., bogus) analogy. Not surprising it was birthed by J Q.

Fat Dad wrote: You're 43 huh? You come across as far more immature than that. Pity that you appeared to learn nothing of ethics from your trad upbringing. And BTW, another great (i.e., bogus) analogy. Not surprising it was birthed by J Q.

Yeah I learned something from the 'ethics' of trad: get away from it, get stronger, and live to climb another day. I did some scary sh!t, but for me, I have enough stress in my life already. I want climbing to be fun.

I haven't seen you write anything with the complexity of what I have, just one sentence snipes. Have anything to contribute to the thread?

In any case, I'd rather write like I'm 20 and still climb like it. Can you say the same?

I see you guys points. And I understand how we differ in opinion. That is all fine by me.
If is good to have spirited discussions. Just like with politics. :)

But without some ethics, where would the National Parks be? They might not exist!
Those areas could be filled with development.

I know FAs don't own the rock. But I do look at routes as being works of art, which
makes me think that the art should not be altered. Unless the artist agrees.

Happy Friday everyone!

And here is more food for thought:

Would people be up in arms if I added 8 bolts to a sport route in Rifle?
Because I think it would be much safer for everyone after it was done.
And it shouldn't matter, because they were not done ground up in bold style.

David Sahalie wrote: Yeah I learned something from the 'ethics' of trad, get away from it, get stronger, and live to climb another day. I did some scary sh!t, but for me, I have enough stress in my life already. I want climbing to be fun.

Scary shit is fun for a lot of people, though.

As far as this particular route, I agree with bolting it. Little/no gear, not established ground up, seems like a good candidate for a sport climb. The FA should still have been consulted.

David Sahalie wrote:Wow, finding myself agreeing with Capt Mo.

Lol...it's okay. Lets cherish the moment and be sure to hit the reset button monday? Cool?

Cor, 'ethics' isn't the right words for what we are talking about, it 'best practices'. There is nothing inherently immoral or unethical about how to protect a rock climb. I say ethics because everyone else does.

Park preservation actually would be an ethical issue, because it is a question of what is best for the whole of humanity, not a select few motivated by money. But we all know where it is going, in 20 years if there is gas to be fracked on NP land, the 1% are going to buy their way into doing it. That would be unethical, and time to re-read the Monkey Wrench Gang.

You can add more bolts at Rifle anywhere you want, but I bet they won't get clipped. It's hard enough holding onto that greasepile just to thrutch to the next crappy hold.

CaptainMo wrote: Lol...it's okay. Lets cherish the moment and be sure to hit the reset button monday? Cool?

It's on like Donkey Kong.

Come on Dave... You're spoiling my fun being the Ethical Devils Advocate!

Embrace the snark young Christopher... gets easier as you get older and more bitter. Take a look at supertopo if you want to see bitter old guys in full effect.

J Q wrote: ...my bowling ball around the ass while wearing a super-hero mask ethic is the tits.....I don't ascribe to your ideology and thus I think your ethics are dog shit. You don't ascribe to my ideology and thus you think my ethics are dog shit. Do you really believe your ideology has the monopoly on ethics?

I could use your eloquence on another thread -how about case o'beer or a cool beverage LOL

David Sahalie wrote: Yeah I learned something from the 'ethics' of trad: get away from it, get stronger, and live to climb another day. I did some scary sh!t, but for me, I have enough stress in my life already. I want climbing to be fun. I haven't seen you write anything with the complexity of what I have, just one sentence snipes. Have anything to contribute to the thread? In any case, I'd rather write like I'm 20 and still climb like it. Can you say the same?

You call this complex?

"The narcissism of the 1980s must live on! Do the climbing with as little weak gear as possible to massage your ego and ensure you, and only you, own that piece of rock. No upgrades shall be done, we shall bow at the feet of the FA and know our place."

or this?

"my issue with the mentality of the Supertopoans is that to them, if the FA, as JQ sa eloquently put, wore a bowling ball on their ass and super hero mask, we should too, all the time, on every single route put up in this era."

Most of the 20 yr. olds I know are capable of expressing themselves in a far more articulate, intelligent manner. Like I said, you're just immature.

As for the subject of this thread, it's pretty evident from the responses that on certain subjects the gulf between trad and sport climbers has gotten broad enough, and after umpteen threads of this nature that devolve into name calling, if they don't start out there to begin with, that any response, no matter how well thought out or written, is not going to persuade any one to change their minds.

Bottom line, at the end of the day, it's not how hard you climb, though that appears to be the only result that matters to you. It's about preserving the rock and ethic for future generations who may not be as shortsighted as folks like you.

Fat Dad wrote: Bottom line, at the end of the day, it's not how hard you climb, though that appears to be the only result that matters to you.

Keep repeating the mantra buddy, now you can sleep at night. Probably should look into some therapy and find out why you are so jealous of David's weak punting attempts at climbing.

Fat Dad wrote: Pity that you appeared to learn nothing of ethics from your trad upbringing. .

Now I understand why you can't understand my analogies: your a member of the dogmatic church of the righteous. It's interesting how people involved in dogmatic thinking have a real hard time understanding that there are multiple valid points of view, but I assure you that is the case.

Dadster,

You are correct that I value my own performance above danger imposed by others. Same reason I don't ride a road bike.

As far as preserving the rock goes, the irony is that far and way the aspect of the sport that is the most visibly damaging to non-climbers (chalk) is boudlering and of course it has absolutely no fixed protection.

With enough traffic, trad easily has as much impact as sport on the rock. Ever been to Indian Creek?