BD X4, ongoing real-world review (will update over time)

These stems should not kink that easily. There must be something off with the quality of the cable BD uses. I'd be a bit worried if they kinked regularly and you had to bend them back by hand. Plastic deformation in metals cannot be repeated ad infinitum...
I think someone should talk to BD about this (I don't own any X4s so it won't be me ;-) )

John Wilder wrote: Aliens do the same thing- they have a very similar connection point at the thumb loop and actually bend easier. That said, I do find it interesting that the production models differ from the prototypes I have at the connection point. The production models seem to have a 'trough' in the swage point, creating an off center connection for the stem. My X4s dont have this and are perfectly centered on top of the thumb loop (and I havent kinked mine in use or just messing with them, even if i try to bend them I cannot kink them)- I wonder if when they did final the final production specs this was a compromise they had to accept in order to be able to build in quantity vs. a small set. At any rate, I dont think its any real issue- but time will tell.

Huh. On mine the larger sizes are centered, but the small ones are not. All have the trough.

Also, for what it's worth, we just don't know if the kinking is going to be a real issue in the future. While you can bend it back by hand easily, we could speculate that repeated kinking might eventually result in a perma-kink or reduced strength. We have no clue whether or not this is the case, and time will tell on that. Right now, I am also leaning towards it not being a serious issue. It's stupid and totally unnecessary (BD, if you are reading this, how the fuck did you not notice this?), but it looks to be mostly cosmetic. Again, more time is needed.

Also, just saw a pic of what might be the first (?) broken x4 from a friend. Pretty clearly umbrella failure, so nothing new or exciting. As with any other cam without cam stops (including aliens and mastercams), the smaller sizes fail when severely tipped out. I'll see if I can post a pic.

shoo wrote:Also, just saw a pic of what might be the first (?) broken x4 from a friend. Pretty clearly umbrella failure, so nothing new or exciting. As with any other cam without cam stops (including aliens and mastercams), the smaller sizes fail when severely tipped out. I'll see if I can post a pic.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but per the information on Backcountry's site, I was under the impression that the X4s do have cam stops. Is that incorrect?

backcountry.com/black-diamo…

Under "tech specs" on the left:

"Cam stops: Yes"

Obviously Backcountry is just a retailer, not the manufacturer, but I didn't have any reason not to trust them, so I figured what they said was true.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you, John.

shoo wrote: Huh. On mine the larger sizes are centered, but the small ones are not. All have the trough. Also, for what it's worth, we just don't know if the kinking is going to be a real issue in the future. While you can bend it back by hand easily, we could speculate that repeated kinking might eventually result in a perma-kink or reduced strength. We have no clue whether or not this is the case, and time will tell on that. Right now, I am also leaning towards it not being a serious issue. It's stupid and totally unnecessary (BD, if you are reading this, how the fuck did you not notice this?), but it looks to be mostly cosmetic. Again, more time is needed. Also, just saw a pic of what might be the first (?) broken x4 from a friend. Pretty clearly umbrella failure, so nothing new or exciting. As with any other cam without cam stops (including aliens and mastercams), the smaller sizes fail when severely tipped out. I'll see if I can post a pic.

The crazy thing is it sounds like they originally never had the trough. Even the demo video vimeo.com/46403584

doesnt show the trough on the cam . It looks like it was a last minute decision that was really dumb.
Look closely at 37 seconds.

Neal Pence wrote: The crazy thing is it sounds like they originally never had the trough. Even the demo video doesnt show the trough on the cam . It looks like it was a last minute decision that was really dumb. Look closely at 37 seconds.

Good eye. Took a screenshot so it's easier to see.

Pre-production x4 swage. Note that this is VERY different than the production version.

So now this begs the question: what gives BD? Kinda seems like you dropped the ball here. Cost skimping? Difficult to manufacture in large quantities?

For now, I will go ahead and say that my current recommendation is to wait to purchase these at this time until this is addressed. It seems like BD could have made the swages the right way, and chose not to. I am going to keep climbing on mine (and happily, I might add), but this really is a bit ridiculous.

So after dealing with the black diamond operator robot on the phone I have awnsers!!!

So the trough drilled into the shroud(housing) which incases the swage is there for...
Once the swage is installed it is incased in the housing and they had to be able to inspect the swage after the housing was installed to ensure proper installation. Which iw shy the whole is there to allow visibility . The person i spoke with said that he understood there was a small trade-off as far as the symetry goes but he said after a few meetings the agreed on the small trade-off. The reason the mock-ups dont have it im assumeing is because they were probably harder to inspect not a problem when inspecting 40 but is a serious problem when inspecting 4000. The recess or trough enabled bd to more quickly and more cost effectively make these cams. All in all its not a big deal anyways maybe a nuissance on rare occasion but its still a great product. Also unlike plastic due to the design and weave pattern on these cables thinking that the cable will fatigue due to bending might happen is not "IMO" a concern. Since thes cables arent bending that far it would most definately take millions of cycles for any slight decrease in strength to occur. Now on the other hand if you could bend it at lets say a 120 degree angle it might be more of a problem. Also the only reason these cables even bend is just due to slight friction in between the individual strands in the cable not serious bending.

Hope this awnsers alot of questions !

I was just at Neptune yesterday and played with the 0.75" X4. I only had to trigger it two or three times for it to take a 10-15 degree kink... I agree this will most likely only have cosmetic & convenience consequences and not be a safety risk. But come on! How was this overlooked? Once the kink is set, the triggering action becomes a bit unstable (tendency for the stem to buckle while pulling the trigger).

And, BTW, John W., Aliens DO NOT do this. I've used them for 15+ years (CCHs and Totems) and have never noticed any tendency for this behavior at all.

To be clear, the problem is the kinking, not the lack of symmetry. I would be happier if they didn't bother with the symmetrical thing at all. It seems as though they made a trade-off without understanding the side effects of their design choice.

My opinion does not change after hearing from Neal's report. This is issue simply should not exist. The product is rushed. I hope they fix it in future batches. If I were in the market today, I would probably hold off a bit and/or look more favorably on competitor's options.

Sounds like JB weld would take care of it.

Just took a close look at mine (.1-.4) The trough is there but NONE of my cables get stuck in it in any way. I gave them a healthy bend into the gap and there wasn't even a chance they would get stuck.

Are we talking about the cables getting hung up or the cable itself bending at/near the swage. ? If it's simply a kinking issue it's no different than Totem Basics, Mastercams etc. If I bend those (by hand) at the swage they kink too. Even my 11 year old CCH Aliens can be kinked by hand no--problem.

Feeling like this is a non-issue...

Sure, Aliens (or any other cam, for that matter) can be kinked. That's not the question.
The issue is that X4s get kinked for no good reason, as a result of trigger pull, for example, or (I assume) as a result of packing, normal handling, etc. And NO, Aliens DO NOT do that. They have not done that in the 15 years I have used them multiple times a week (both CCH and Totem).
From my very limited in-store experience, it is not the cable getting stuck anywhere, but the cable actually bending.

Hey, I was just trying to find out if REI had them in stock (they don't) when I noticed that even their catalog picture of an X4 shows a kinked stem cable!!

Photo of BD X4 cam from REI website... notice the kink!

I climbed with these again for the last four days in the gunks. I found that I didn't notice the kinks while climbing, even when placing. At the end of the trip I laid them out and they pretty much are all kinked. Again, I didn't notice this at all while I was climbing and I don't think it changed how or when I placed.

I'm still not entirely sold on these over my aliens, but I have to say the grey x4 I was climbing with fit once where a grey alien wouldn't because of head width.

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/cam…

I am a huge BD fan. I do love the new x4s. I have the red, blue and grey. No need for the bigger sizes. They compliment the rack well with C3s. With that being said, I was not as impressed with the extra "expansion range". To me they are practically the same as fixe aliens unless I am missing something. Not sure what the expansion range is on the the totem basic, but I'd imagine its about the same as aliens.

I can't believe the fuss being made of this "kink".

That said I can't believe the fuss being made of X4s in general. Totems are much better than all the competitors. Narrow head and highest grip. What's not to like?

The new Totem Basics look amazing! I was watching the product slideshow on the homepage for hours. Beautiful cams!

A bunch of my nuts are kinked. Am I going to die?

TacoDelRio wrote:A bunch of my nuts are kinked. Am I going to die?

Yer definitely gonna die!

Quicky update:

A few weeks in Eldo and Squamish, and I am pretty happy with my set. C3s have sat in the bottom of a bin in my car, untouched and unwanted. Most pieces have seen at least one moderate to big fall. One head (not the thumb loop swage) is slightly kinked permanently, but that happens to pretty much every other small cam too. The flexibility of these has been awesome. No major issues or surprises.