Thin Ropes in ATC Guide = Danger
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The Black Diamond ATC Guide is a near-essential, ever-popular piece of gear designed for multi-pitch rock climbing. When belaying a follower from above, one can easily belay off an anchor, rather than the body, by using "guide mode", increasing safety and comfort. One excellent feature of guide mode is that the ATC acts as an auto-locking belay device. It works because the device is oriented such that the climbing strands cinch down on the belay strands when loaded, halting downward movement. Here I report a failure of this auto-locking feature when used with thin ropes. |
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Which locking biner did you use for the belay? I've always use two locking biners for belay biner or rappel to provide more friction. |
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Was the rope running straight down below the device, or was it running off at an angle? |
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its a known issue ... when it happens the device usually seizes up and is a biatch to unlock |
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divnamite wrote:Which locking biner did you use for the belay? I've always use two locking biners for belay biner or rappel to provide more friction.Cool tip. Thanks. Do both biners hold both ropes, or one rope per biner? |
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Cor wrote:Was the rope running straight down below the device, or was it running off at an angle? (Last piece of gear off to the side some...) The device will slip, and not totally auto lock if that is the case. (This has been a known fact for some time. So always keep hands on the lines...)Thanks for your reply. I do think that the ropes were running at a bit of an angle. Hadn't been warned of this before. Cheers. |
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You had better read the instructions on your device!! |
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bearbreeder wrote:its a known issue ... when it happens the device usually seizes up and is a biatch to unlock and yes the belay device "should" be replaced when the groves are worn out, for thinner ropes anyways with single ropes its not an issue theres a reason that the mammut alpine smart comes in a version just for twins/doubles there is no real device that can handle any diameter reliably and smoothly from 7.7mm-10.5mm ... despite the propaganda from BD/PETZL/etc ... for thinner ropes the reverso 3/4 works better ... for thicker ropes the ATC guide is smoother its all a tradeoff ;)Thanks. I'll check out these other devices. |
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I use a madrock madlock belay device it has a removable pin for use with double or twin ropes to create a tighter bend in the rope for more friction with the smaller diameter ropes. I keep the pin in the zipper pocket of my chalkbag when using single ropes. |
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Dang Farkas, first you nearly rap to your death, now this? You better get your sh:t together. (and I mean that in the most positive, loving way!) |
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This scenario is even worse with the new Reverso. There is a groove cut out of the sides of the Reverso which allow the ropes to slide to the side of the device and not directly on the break strand. Not sure if I am explaining it clearly here. I actually had a 10.2 invert in one of those things when I was using it to ascend. Nothing like switching from ascending to rappelling in a split second. |
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farkas.time......I think, from your response, that you may have misinterpreted divnamite's suggestion regarding the use of two locking carabiners to belay. By doubling or even tripling the locking carabiners the resulting additional surface area greatly increases the friction and thus the control of the belay. |
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the double biner belay technique is also good for a light person belaying a heavy person |
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I've had this same creep with a 9.8 sterling velocity dry treated... it was the dry treat but it freaked the hell outta me when I couldn't actually stop when I was rapping. |
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something is fundamentally wrong if you can't stop while you rap... |
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Spent a weekend climbing at Laurel Knob on a buddy's 7.8's with an ATC guide and BD gridlock. Used an old petzl atache spin ball (large diameter) through the loop. Not sure if this is a better combination than what you used but I didn't have any problems. Rapping on the other hand was scary slick. |
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Regularly use PMI Verglass 8.1 twins with my ATC Guide and any number of lockers and have yet to experience such a problem. |
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CaptainMo wrote:I've had this same creep with a 9.8 sterling velocity dry treated... it was the dry treat but it freaked the hell outta me when I couldn't actually stop when I was rapping.How does the "autoblock mode" of these new devices, and specifically slippage of one strand over/past the other, relate to rapping? |
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I'd say this had to be a special circumstance regarding the rope being pulled sideways during the auto-lock. I've experimented a little with a 7mm accessory cord and an ATC Guide, never in a real scenario, but I played around with and jump/fell onto it. It locked every time, no problem. |
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Gunkiemike wrote: How does the "autoblock mode" of these new devices, and specifically slippage of one strand over/past the other, relate to rapping?Slippage rapping vs slippage in autolock belay mode. . . Both devices should be locked off but still the ropes are creeping through the device. The correlation isn't obvious? Slippage. In my case Sterling said it was normal and just the dry. Seriously wigged me out... |
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CaptainMo wrote: Slippage rapping vs slippage in autolock belay mode. . . Both devices should be locked off but still the ropes are creeping through the device. The correlation isn't obvious? Slippage. In my case Sterling said it was normal and just the dry. Seriously wigged me out...Two different things, if you haven´t enough braking power when abseiling then the ropes are too thin or you are too fat. In autobloc mode the ropes pass each other inside the device (they exchange their relative positions) and they don´t autobloc any more though the problem is still the ropes are too thin or the load was too high. I´ve posted the pull test results for the ATC Guide and Reverso³ previously, while Patzl highlight the limitations of their device in autobloc mode Black Diamond don´t seem to care enough about their customers to bother. |