DMM demons vs. metolius master cam

I'm about to buy my first cams... hooray!!!

narrowed it down to either demons or master cams (found both on sale for ~48$)

any pointers that could help me choose between the two would be great.

Thanks

Dani

they're called dragons, and BD all the way

Congrats on getting your first cams! I personally love the master cams I have (0-4). From my experience and other people's stories the #5 and 6 master cam tend to get stuck sometimes due to the aggressive nature of the cam lobe. Instead of a straight angle they curve out at the ends (the larger the cam the farther out). This makes them get stuck sometimes. Anyway I also love my BD C4s. I have never had DMM Dragons but I love their company and their other gear I own.

In fairness to the OP, DMM does make a cam called the demon. It's a lot like their dragon cam but it is single axle. A while back I wrote up a more detailed review of them here:
blistergearreview.com/gear-…

As far as cams go, the demon is pretty different than the Mastercam. The unique DMM stem notwithstanding, I think they're much more similar to something like a helium friend or DMM dragon. Out of curiosity, how did you narrow it down to those two?

Last, if you're set on choosing between demons and mastercams (and they're both pretty solid), I'd ask what sizes you are thinking about buying as a first set?

Best first cams = C4's .5-3 (.75,1,2 especially). You will never regret the purchase.

The master cams only cover the smaller part of "first cams" range and are more fidely than the C4's. Anything lower than a BD .5 for your first rack you should be utilizing nuts.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:they're called dragons, and BD all the way

there are DRAGONS and there are DEMONS two different models of DMM

I narrowed it down to these two after climbing with the master cams and dragons of my climbing buddy. he also had C4s but I liked the feel of the master cams better. I also liked the extendable cord of DMM.
plus there's the price 48$

about the size I was thinking to get sizes which are similar to the 0.5-3 of the C4s (not sure what are they for the DMMs or metolius... but that's the recommended sizes I found at forums and reviews for first rack).

Thanks for the detailed review on the demons

Dani

Demons for $48ea is decent (assuming no tax or shipping). Same as WC Friends, in that they compliment a BD rack well. Mastercams are awesome for #4 and smaller (and can be had for deals).

If those are your final choices, get the Demons for now, down to about a 1.5 (or down to 2 and MCs for the small end if cash allows). Double up with Camalots later.

If you can wait, C4s go on sale all the time - buy when they're 25-30% off and get .5-3 set.

NorCalNomad wrote:Best first cams = C4's .5-3 (.75,1,2 especially). You will never regret the purchase. The master cams only cover the smaller part of "first cams" range and are more fidely than the C4's. Anything lower than a BD .5 for your first rack You Gould be utilizing nuts.

Pretty much this. TCU's, Powercams, Aliens, whatever in the smaller ranges. 4,5,6 C4. Double set of nuts. That should cover almost anything short of big wall and long parallel off-widths.

If you like the feel of those cams, I say grab them. I have respectfully disagree with the "just buy black diamond" school of thought regarding cams. I own many BD cams and love them, but there are other great cams out there and if something else feels better, then go that route instead. Yes, camalots are awesome, but there's plenty of room for other opinions in the cam market.

It's also worth pointing out that the mastercams don't go larger than the green #6, which means that line won't take you much larger than rattly fingers or ring locks (it's not a perfect comparison considering the different ranges, but the metolius 6 is a shade smaller than a BD 0.75). Since for your first set you'll want to include hand size pieces (again, depending on where you climb most often), if I were buying for myself I would get ring locks and above in the demons (that's the silver or red up through the blue 3.5 in DMM sizes ) and everything below that (something like yellow through black in metolius sizes) in mastercams.

Have fun, and take care with your placements regardless of which cams you wind up with

Dave Alie wrote:It's also worth pointing out that the mastercams don't go larger than the green #6, which means that line won't take you much larger than rattly fingers or ring locks (it's not a perfect comparison considering the different ranges, but the metolius 6 is a shade smaller than a BD 0.75).

Huh? The green Met is roughly equivalent to a #1 Camalot. A bit larger in fact at full compression.

Gunkiemike wrote: Huh? The green Met is roughly equivalent to a #1 Camalot. A bit larger in fact at full compression.

Correct:
Metolius #5 is approximately the same as C4 #.75
Metolius #6 is approximately the same as C4 #1

If you buy anything other than C4s for sizes #.75 or up you will probably end up regretting it eventually. They are durable, easy to place and remove and totally bomber. Mastercams are good for the smaller sizes.

Kevin DB wrote:If you buy anything other than C4s for sizes #.75 or up you will probably end up regretting it eventually. They are durable, easy to place and remove and totally bomber. Mastercams are good for the smaller sizes.

i dont regret my dragons ;)

for the OP ... buy what feels best in your hand and on the rock ...

the extendible slings on the dragon/demons are quite useful and can save you some draws on longer climbs

thanks for the advice guys

since most of you love the BD so much I'll check out the C4s again and see how they feel in my hand.

Gunkiemike wrote: Huh? The green Met is roughly equivalent to a #1 Camalot. A bit larger in fact at full compression.

Sorry Mike, typo on my part. good catch. My post above is supposed to say that it's a shade larger than the 0.75, not smaller. It's true the range of the BD 1 extends below the range of the green mastercam, but it also extends noticeable higher at the wider end of it's range, just enough that I have trouble getting decent thin hands jams with the green. I may have larger hands than most, but the green mastercam is almost desperately thin hands for me unless it's uncomfortably tipped out, whereas I can reach for the 1 camalot and get good thin hands at the upper half of it's range.

Ultimately, I think we're all in agreement that a first time cam buyer should probably be looking to include sizes that extend beyond the upper limit of the mastercam range which.

One more thought on the mastercams: I have heard people disparage the mastercams in the largest sizes (mostly black and green) for the heads being too heavy relative to the stiffness of the stem such that the cam feels floppy. The green especially feels noticeably less stiff than the smaller sizes, but not to the extent that it has ever bothered me. however, might be worth checking that out in a shop to see which camp you are in (bothered or not) before committing to those sizes.

Get what you can afford , fill in with others as money allows . All the cams mentioned are great and will serve you well , I'm not a big fan of the sling set up on the dragons
But only because your out a cam or two when it comes time to Re sling them . Otherwise there great cams I used a couple at turkey last weekend really impressed

If your an old aid man like me and have a mixed bag of cams then you really don't worry about who made them , just an example ....

.75 Camelot = orange alien , black met 4cu , # 6 master cam roughly equiv ect

Nuts or smaller cams below .5 although I prefer a well placed nut over a small cam any day of the week .

If your around flares or pin scars then a couple offset cams / nuts are a welcome addition I like the blue/ yellow and the yellow/orange metolius offsets

Just buy a whole rack of #4 (red) mastercams they go everywhere.

But on a more serious note I really only like the BD c4’s .75 and up (on my rack I only have BD 1-4 sometimes a 5) under the .75 I use mastercams some tcu’s nuts and the best of all (will take a beating for this one) tri-cams. Honestly most cams on the market will do fine by you and a lot of the talk on these forums is personal preference, for example the way it sounds I may be the only one on here who likes my #6 master cam (green) more the my #1 c4. Buy based on feel not on opinions of other people.

Use my advice with a grain of salt I don’t climb very hard trad or aid im out there just to have a good time. Maybe you would see a difference climbing 5.11 on gear.

bigwallrog wrote: I'm not a big fan of the sling set up on the dragons But only because your out a cam or two when it comes time to Re sling them . Otherwise there great cams I used a couple at turkey last weekend really impressed

tech cord ... unlike the BDs where you need thick webbing to resling ... you can simply use tech cord in the metal eyes ... like the technical friends or old camalots

in that sense its EASIER than the current C4s to resling yourself

;)

got my demons!!! new shiny gear always makes me feel like a raven/crow... ;-)

If anybody is hitting the crags at the bay area (SF) I'd be happy to join. descent+ climbing technique but kind of new to gear placement.

rock on

Dani

if you wait for them to go on sale as a set on backcountry.com you'll be able to buy the bd c4 3-.5 for about the same price as the other cams your looking at.

skierhs wrote:if you wait for them to go on sale as a set on backcountry.com you'll be able to buy the bd c4 3-.5 for about the same price as the other cams your looking at.

Bent Gate has their 4th of July sale going on too.

bentgate.com/camming-devices