Clipping gear when leading on two ropes for two seconds
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I'll be leading multipitch trad for two seconds tomorrow and I'm wondering about whether it makes sense to provide separate attachment points to each piece of gear for each rope. Basically, I'm wondering if it makes sense to clip each rope into its own biner on each piece. I believe that it does not, but a colleague raised valid concerns that bear discussion. So I ask you. |
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If the route wanders, you need directionals for both seconds. So clip both ropes into the pieces that are needed to protect a swing for your seconds, then only clip the one rope in places where a directional is not needed. This is what I have done in the past. |
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You should think of it as climbing with double ropes. Hopefully your ropes are two different colors. Keep the "red" rope always on the right side and clip your right pieces. Keep the "green" rope on the left and clip your left pieces. Have your belayer put you on belay with both ropes. Keep in mind that when everyone is at the belay, you should keep your ropes oriented so that when you face the wall, red is still on the right and green is on the left. I've gotten a twist in when not being careful. |
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BTLove wrote:If the route wanders, you need directionals for both seconds. So clip both ropes into the pieces that are needed to protect a swing for your seconds, then only clip the one rope in places where a directional is not needed. .+1 |
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are you climbing on doubles/twins .... or a single and trailing |
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1) Probably not a concern |
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"Clipping gear when leading on two ropes for two seconds"
If yer leading for only two seconds who cares about a rope(s) and clipping gear?? Oh you mean how best to clip gear using two ropes and having two people follow on each rope? Regardless of who or what is following when utilizing two ropes you either 1) clip both ropes to all gear or 2) clip each rope to gear independently (typically alternating with each piece of gear). That is you do not clip the first rope into a piece and the second rope into another piece then later clip them both together. By together I mean into the same biner. If you want to clip both into the same piece of gear use two quick draws clipping each rope into different quick draws. The reason for this is because if a fall were to occur and you could have slack in one rope which could ride over the other and cut through it. |
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Whenever I climb in a party of three, we usually swing leads so we climb one at a time. The second (middle) is tied into two ropes. The second re racks and helps the belayer as needed. Leave in a piece for traverses. I think it is nearly as quick as belaying two at once, which I've never done, because it seems like a cluster fudge looming. Plus, I'll be god damned if I am going to be helmet to ass with some fat gassy bastard on a crack climb. |
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Wow you must be a super fast climber if you can lead a pitch in two seconds... Sorry it was a very long day and it took me a minute and reading a little further to figure it out. |
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bearbreeder wrote:are you climbing on doubles/twins .... or a single and trailingDon't skim past this question from bearbreeder. Maybe it doesn't need to be said, but you sound like you are figuring things out and may be considering leading on two single ropes. I don't have a link to any research on it, but depending on the single ropes used a fall caught on two singles will mean a high impact force on the top piece, and will likely be... uncomfortable for you. |
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If leading with two single ropes, clip them both, with a single carabiner on the rope end, through all the gear so each 2nd has any necessary directionals, but only take a belay on one of the ropes. Twists that do ocassionally occur generally just migrate up the ropes to the Reverso and are only rarely problematic enough to require any action at all. I typically find I need to fix them maybe once on longish routes. The risk of breaking a carabiner when one second falls while the other opens the gate to remove his/her rope is negligible. It's a fairly low probability event to begin with, and as long as you're keeping the belays snug, the loads generated are unlikely to be sufficient to snap a carabiner. |
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Derek Doucet wrote:If leading with two single ropes, clip them both, with a single carabiner on the rope end, through all the gear so each 2nd has any necessary directionals, but only take a belay on one of the ropes. Twists that do ocassionally occur generally just migrate up the ropes to the Reverso and are only rarely problematic enough to require any action at all. I typically find I need to fix them maybe once on longish routes. The risk of breaking a carabiner when one second falls while the other opens the gate to remove his/her rope is negligible. It's a fairly low probability event to begin with, and as long as you're keeping the belays snug, the loads generated are unlikely to be sufficient to snap a carabiner. I've done this on many routes with excellent results. All that said, taking two novices up multipitch routes is an involved and sometimes complex process with ample opportunity for serious problems. Make sure your rope management, anchoring, Reverso and self rescue skills are dialed.+1 Do not belay on both ropes if you clip them both through the same pro, or else your fall will not be sufficiently dynamic. (Or so I've been told. It seems to make sense, though.) |
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I remember people expressing concern that if you have two single ropes running through the same biners, belayed on one, and fell, there could be an issue of rope burn as they would run past each other. |
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Thanks for all the advice. |
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immunizer wrote:The ropes are of different color but the same diameter. They are single ropes and a bit fatter than might be ideal (~10mm), but they're what we have. It was never my intention to lead on both of them, but the point about insufficient dynamism is well-taken and I'm glad to have it pointed out.if anyone has a mammut alpine smart or a gigi ... use it for 10mm+ ropes, pulling 2 of them through a reverso, or even an ATC guide is a biatch on the positive side you can skip arm day at the gym for a week or two ;) |
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"If you want to clip both into the same piece of gear use two quick draws clipping each rope into different quick draws. " |
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Peter Franzen wrote:"If you want to clip both into the same piece of gear use two quick draws clipping each rope into different quick draws. " I was always under the impression that twin ropes were meant to be clipped into the same carabiner on each piece. Is that incorrect? It always seems like there's some confusion between the precise definitions of "twin", "half", and "double" ropes. Petzl indicates that twin ropes are not clipped to the same pieces, whereas Mammut clearly states "Twin ropes must only be used in pairs and are clipped together into each piece of protection, as with single rope technique." The Mammut page goes on to say "...you have the choice between twin rope technique, where both ropes run parallel through the protection and half rope technique, where the «left» and «right» ropes run separately through different protection points" regarding Half (Double) ropes.twin ropes are clipped to the same carabiner ... half ropes can be done either or according to mammut ... now before anyone goes off and off about the dangers of clipping half ropes to one piece/biner then splitting them or vice versa ... ill save everyone the trouble by pointing out my prior email from mammut saying its fine with their ropes or i can start posting screen shots from the Odyssey of hazel findlay and james person doing routes and taking falls on doubles that have went through a single biner then split up, etc ... they climb harder and more than most MPers, and fall more on halves than anyone here ... ;) |
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Hey Bearbreeder, |
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bearbreeder wrote: for 10mm+ ropes, pulling 2 of them through a reverso, or even an ATC guide is a biatch on the positive side you can skip arm day at the gym for a week or two ;)^ This. Get thinner ropes. Well never mind. Use the ropes you have once, but pick a short route. Then you will actually appreciate the thinner ropes when you get them. If you really want to stick with the fatties, look at a B-52 belay device, I think they are a bit wider, and can also be used in auto-lock mode to belay off the anchor. I've used something similar to the setup you mention several times with one experienced partner and one total noob. It can work very well if you and your experienced friend have everything dialed. Belaying two at once is MUCH faster than one at a time as long as you can avoid rope clusters while bringing them up (stack the ropes in two piles). If you are going to do it, make sure to use an auto locker (ATC guide, reverso, etc). We typically let our beginner friend follow 2nd, with me or my experienced friend following 10-15 feet or so behind. This way whoever is following 3rd can help the beginner friend out if he/she has any issues. As for your system using two singles: -When leading: Make sure you are only belayed on one rope at a time. Clip the other one to your haul loop so that you don't accidentally clip the rope that you are not being belayed on. The rope from the haul line should be the line to the middle climber (only really matters if you're swinging leads w/ climber #3). Only clip the hauled rope to protection points before a traverse where you need a directional. When belaying the followers: Stack the ropes in two piles. As they climb, if there is a piece of pro with two ropes clipped to it, instruct #2 only to unclip their rope. Other than that, #3 cleans everything (since ideally they are more experienced, faster, and won't get your pieces stuck). When #2 & #3 get there they clove in to the anchor with their ropes. For bonus points, and extra speed: You can swing leads with #3. This way you only need to re-stack the middle guys rope (that was clipped to your haul loop). Once it's re-stacked, simply unclip it from your haul loop, and have #3 clip it to his/her haul loop. While #2 is re-stacking #3 can be re-racking. After this throw #3 on belay and he/she is ready to lead, and you will now be following 3rd. Since #2 doesn't have much to do other than climb, have him take photos. Good luck! |
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Josh wrote:Hey Bearbreeder, Would you be willing to share that email from Mammut? After doing a quick MP search, I didn't find prior discussions of the specific issue you referenced, but I've been interested in getting that exact question answered for a while now: if I am climbing with a set of ropes rated both as twins and halfs (like the PMI Verglass, my favorite alpine ropes ever), any reason why I can't switch back and forth between those two techniques on the same pitch? In other words, is there any problem with clipping both ropes through some points of protection (i.e. clipping both ropes through a single biner) and then clipping each through separate points of protection on some later portion of the same pitch (and then maybe even switching back to treating them as twins [i.e. clipping them both through single protection points])? It sounds like you have an email from Mammut saying this is OK, as well as some footage of hardpersons climbing in exactly this style (and taking falls I wouldn't have the gumption to face, etc.). If so, that would be helpful corroboration. Thanks.Hello (deleted), you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes. Hope this helps you, best regards from Switzerland, (deleted) (deleted) Kind regards (deleted) Productmanager Climbing Equipment Mammut Sports Group AG, Birren 5, CH-5703 Seon Tel. +41 62 769 81 32, Fax +41 62 769 82 47, mammut.ch from the Odyssey ... the amazing hazel findlay flashing E7 ... she splits the ropes then joins em back together at the last pin james pearson on e8/9 ... he joins the ropes then splits em ... and even takes a fall latter ... doesnt die quite yet miss findlay again ... onsighting e6 she joins the ropes at the first piece then splits em ... to the OP ... dont be afraid to try it youll learn what works and what doesnt work ive done enough runs up the chief bringing 2 people up ... it takes around 20% more time even with newbs if they you keep them inline ;) 1. make sure both ropes are flaked out nicely 2. tie the lead rope to your harness, you trailing rope to a locker on yr haul/gear loop ... easier to haul and less likely to screw up clipping the wrong rope 3. as you lead up clip the trailing to the occasional second draw on pieces to protect traverses .... clipping the rope to the same biner and every piece as the lead rope will cause the rope to rub more against the rock, more drag, and be harder to pull up the rope on belay 4. when you get to the top go on autoblock ... make sure the weaker climb is in the middle as they only need to unclip their draws, not clean gear ... always keep 20 feet+ separation between the climbers ... the second climber need to know to keep his feet UNDER the rope on traverses so if he falls he doesnt pull off the third 5.you can either flake the ropes into 2 slings like you mentioned, which honestly is going to be a total biatch with 10mm+ ropes and a reverso ... or just or just pull em into piles ... if you do this, when the second and third get up, their immediate job is re-flake the ropes over their tie in points 6. if you want to swap leads with the third, he simply takes the trail line and leads up, no untying needed ... 7. its a great way to teach the multi newb in the middle how to lead/top belay under supervision again i strongly recommend a gigi or mammut alpine smart for 10mm+ ropes with multi newbs .... ;) |
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Friction between ropes isn't much problem, unless they get twisted. Try to be consistent pulling one rope up toward your left and the other toward your right. Twisted ropes can actually clean your gear behind you! |