New campground at Shelf Road

damn, i should start coming up with some ideas..... the 12% off the top isn't too bad, all things considered.

While I think your hearts are most likely in the right place, I think that your idea of building a “sustainable” campground in this area is totally misleading.

The first issue is that the area you’re thinking of developing is private property, surrounded by a number of different property owners. It’s clear from your photos and video that you were on their land. Unless you were invited by one of the property owners, you were trespassing.

The bigger issue, though, is that your project is an outright contradiction- full of smoke and mirrors. In your video you talk about macro-level issues including natural resource use, hunger, the unsustainability of society, but then go on to introduce a project that (1) in no way addresses any of those issues and (2) is a commercial enterprise that will only further the environmental degradation of the Shelf Road area. There is absolutely nothing sustainable about developing a campground in this area, especially with the amenities you’re proposing. This is a fragile, semi-arid environment with little to no water; bringing in hundreds to thousands of people a year will do nothing to enhance the environmental well-being of this area.

If increasing the sustainability of the area truly is your goal, then the changes you propose simply don’t make sense and will have a number of detrimental environmental effects. Supplying running water to campers in this area, as you propose, is in no way an efficient use of resources; this is an extremely dry environment, meaning the only way to get water is through drilling a well. I fail to see how taking water from a water-scarce environment is sustainable (especially considering how you talk about the unsustainable use of water and other natural resources in the introduction of your video). Further, per your project description, the idea of growing food in this environment is ludicrous. You could do so, but certainly not without applying copious (unsustainable) amounts of water and other inputs for amending the soil.

I’d go on, but the bottom-line is that increasing the number of visitors to the area and introducing these changes will not preserve “the local habitat and its wildlife” as you say in the project description, but will contribute to the degradation and overuse of an already fragile ecosystem. I don’t consider this sustainable, no matter how well intentioned you may be… and I do think you are well intentioned. The most sustainable thing you can do is to let it stay as it is.

It all seems better than the Dept. of Corrections building another prison, which is
unsustainable... Bringing more people to the area, with limited resources!

Maybe the ShelfLife fellows should have put together a better advertisement before
putting it up here for a show down of gun smoke!

It does seem obvious that more camping is needed though. Especially when you drive all that way, no camping is left, so you just camp wherever... I see people doing this for many years now! The BLM (or whoever collects the camping fees) should charge more, then have the funding to develop more...

Perhaps the point is that our lifestyle is unsustainable. It's not reasonable for everyone to do what they want all the time. It's likely that the worlds resources will become so diminished that americans will be forced to sacrifice a bit of our comfort and convenience to continue living.

I believe a sustainable approach to over-crowding is closing climbing gyms. Less people easily introduced to the sport and less resources wasted on construction and maintenance of unnecessary buildings.

The premise that Shelf needs more established campsites is probably valid. I can't count how many times I have had to dismantle rogue fire rings or place rocks to obstruct impromptu sites that have sprung up along the roads leading to the Bank or Gallery. Vegetation along these roads has taken quite a hit and will be VERY slow to recover. I appreciate the initiative to help remedy the current situation but would rather see someone work with the BLM, RMFI, etc to expand existing campgrounds or build new campgrounds with very minimal amenities (no electricity, no water). I think the founders have identified a real problem although their execution may be lacking. I am also very skeptical of the entire funding model. If you have the potential to make money on this venture, I would at least expect to be re-compensated for any contribution, either by being paid back or through some amount of free camping. There seems to be an extremely high risk for donors without a very substantial incentive if the venture succeeds. All said and done though, I hope the founders can come up with a solution for the problem of indiscriminate camping and vegetation loss.

Is it just me, or do these two guys act like a couple of low budget televangelists in their facebook video?
Have they actually seen the road leading up past cactus cliff?

I agree that the camping situation at Shelf needs to be improved. The established areas are overrun on the weekends and people are doing quite a bit of damage to the landscape by just camping wherever they want. But as others have said, if the goal is truly to reduce this impact, building a commercial campground with more amenities that requires a new road is not the answer. I have to say that all of the 'sustainable' talk smells like green-washing to garner support for an initiative that is based on personal and financial gain. It's pretty clear that the best way to improve the camping situation at Shelf and reduce its impact is to work with the BLM, RMFI, and Access Fund to expand/improve the current areas.

Another issue that hasn't been brought up... Stricter enforcement by the BLM (i.e. ticketing violators) could help to deal with those who are disrespecting the land and making their own sites. It's probably a funding/resource issue for the BLM, but it seems like people will continue to do whatever they want as long as there are no real consequences to them.

Hello,

I just wanted to inform everyone that you have all gotten your wish and the project will not be moving forward from this point on. Sorry we're not sorry for trying. I challenge any one of you to try and do something for the better. It is very easy to throw stones behind a computer screen. Try actually making a difference and then see how you feel about it. You guys sure talk a big game. Let see anyone actually try and back it up and do something. Thanks for making us feel like terrible people for trying to do something for the common good of everyone that uses the area. Show me a better plan to improve the situation or make a difference. At least we tried to take initiative.

And not everyone is out to screw people over. Do you really think that was our intention?! It's called crowd-funding because it takes a "crowd" and many people to make it happen and we thought that enough people would support the idea but I guess we miss-read the situation. You tell me a better way to get money for a venture like this for two people out of college with massive student loan debt. I'd love to hear it.

Maybe it's not all bad tho camping in a parking lot or anywhere else you can find. Sounds fun I hope you all enjoy it.

OH and Just an FYI the video was taken while we were walking the land with the realtor. Try asking a couple questions next time before jumping to conclusions.

Have a great day!

"It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institutions and merely lukewarm defenders of those who would gain by the new ones"
- Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527)

Kaleb, I don't know you... but thanks for trying to make more amenities for climbers.

PMO, You should just delete that trespassing comment. I totally called it (Realtor, DUH!)

I always dreamed of having a big climbers camp area in Boulder. The land cost is so high that there would be no way to regain the investment. Then there is the cost up front, how would you do it.... Investors, kick starters, etc. But internet tough guys can't seem to get it.

Maybe someday....

First of all I'd like to say that all these assumptions about shelf life are ridiculous and unfounded. How about asking instead of making assumptions. It seems obvious that this area does need more camping. The idea wasn't to bring more people to the area with this project. It was OBVIOUSLY intended to accommodate the GROWING number of people getting into outdoor recreation in this country. The banks and sand gulch are FAILING and are also turning no profit for the BLM hence the increased fee. Basically our tax dollars are paying for this failed enterprise by the government. Any of you consider that? The good thing about a private campground is that it will be managed appropriately. Just the fact that someone will be living there improves the situation dramatically. Also these guys intended to teach people about sustainable practices in the wild. Staying on designated trails, camping where it's allowed, things like this will help to improve not only this area but everywhere these folks take their new knowledge. The problem with shelf road isn't the growing number of people, its the system. Improved trails would have been one of the main goals of shelf life and believe me they were doing a bunch of homework to tackle this issue. Every time we went down their our goal was to figure out way that this area could be improved for better sustainability. Also want to say that the comment about farming was pathetic. It doesn't take a crazy amount of water to farm with permaculture techniques. Educate yourself, not everything is run like commercial ag. AND everyone is bitching about how this area is already over run, and there's all this talk about working with the BLM and donating to the access fund. STUPID STUPID STUPID. The government is one of the reasons this place is being destroyed. The biggest problem this area faces, period, is overgrazing by the cattle. This is a profit for the BLM, so all you sustainable do goods out there criticizing this project should do something about that. Arrogance and ignorance run hand in hand and I've seen both demonstrated with many of the responses to this project. And I wrote this in a few minutes on an iPhone. Givin the time and a computer I would have dispelled every stupid fucking thing I read from the thread. Assumptions make an ass out of YOU only

Shelf Life Campground wrote:Unfortunately we ran into unforeseen complications which are preventing us from pursuing this dream.

What were the "unforeseen complications"?

Kaleb Brown wrote:Try actually making a difference and then see how you feel about it. You guys sure talk a big game. Let see anyone actually try and back it up and do something.

I commend you for trying to make a difference, but your plan failed. Don't blame others for pointing out the oversights to your plan, as you've already admitted that at least one of them brought the whole project to a halt (perhaps not one mentioned here, but an oversight nonetheless). I don't think anybody said "I could do better". I don't need to be able to bake a pie to know when I've eaten a shitty pie.

Kaleb Brown wrote:You tell me a better way to get money for a venture like this for two people out of college with massive student loan debt. I'd love to hear it.

There isn't one, because the whole project was a financial black hole from the beginning. No bank would have given you money, for good reason. The economics were far from "sustainable".

The dream is dead???
NO!!
Shelflife had no shelf life.

i don't see how the current bank and sand gulch campgrounds are a failure. i would actually say they have been quite successful. it has just gotten to a point, due to a large increase in the number of various groups visiting shelf, that the current demand for camping is exceeding the supply. is this the BLM's fault? sure, there are ignorant users on occasion who feel the need to bust up a tree for firewood. again, is this the BLM's fault?

as most have stated, you have good intentions. however, it takes a lot of time, effort, and evaluating other's criticisms to really put together a good plan. you shouldn't feel offended by criticism - it provides a lot of opportunity to avoid pitfalls and refine a plan.

Kaleb Brown wrote:Hello, I just wanted to inform everyone that you have all gotten your wish and the project will not be moving forward from this point on. Sorry we're not sorry for trying. I challenge any one of you to try and do something for the better. It is very easy to throw stones behind a computer screen. Try actually making a difference and then see how you feel about it. You guys sure talk a big game. Let see anyone actually try and back it up and do something. Thanks for making us feel like terrible people for trying to do something for the common good of everyone that uses the area. Show me a better plan to improve the situation or make a difference. At least we tried to take initiative. And not everyone is out to screw people over. Do you really think that was our intention?! It's called crowd-funding because it takes a "crowd" and many people to make it happen and we thought that enough people would support the idea but I guess we miss-read the situation. You tell me a better way to get money for a venture like this for two people out of college with massive student loan debt. I'd love to hear it. Maybe it's not all bad tho camping in a parking lot or anywhere else you can find. Sounds fun I hope you all enjoy it. OH and Just an FYI the video was taken while we were walking the land with the realtor. Try asking a couple questions next time before jumping to conclusions. Have a great day! "It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institutions and merely lukewarm defenders of those who would gain by the new ones" - Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527)

BBJerry wrote:First of all I'd like to say that all these assumptions about shelf life are ridiculous and unfounded. How about asking instead of making assumptions. It seems obvious that this area does need more camping. The idea wasn't to bring more people to the area with this project. It was OBVIOUSLY intended to accommodate the GROWING number of people getting into outdoor recreation in this country. The banks and sand gulch are FAILING and are also turning no profit for the BLM hence the increased fee. Basically our tax dollars are paying for this failed enterprise by the government. Any of you consider that? The good thing about a private campground is that it will be managed appropriately. Just the fact that someone will be living there improves the situation dramatically. Also these guys intended to teach people about sustainable practices in the wild. Staying on designated trails, camping where it's allowed, things like this will help to improve not only this area but everywhere these folks take their new knowledge. The problem with shelf road isn't the growing number of people, its the system. Improved trails would have been one of the main goals of shelf life and believe me they were doing a bunch of homework to tackle this issue. Every time we went down their our goal was to figure out way that this area could be improved for better sustainability. Also want to say that the comment about farming was pathetic. It doesn't take a crazy amount of water to farm with permaculture techniques. Educate yourself, not everything is run like commercial ag. AND everyone is bitching about how this area is already over run, and there's all this talk about working with the BLM and donating to the access fund. STUPID STUPID STUPID. The government is one of the reasons this place is being destroyed. The biggest problem this area faces, period, is overgrazing by the cattle. This is a profit for the BLM, so all you sustainable do goods out there criticizing this project should do something about that. Arrogance and ignorance run hand in hand and I've seen both demonstrated with many of the responses to this project. And I wrote this in a few minutes on an iPhone. Givin the time and a computer I would have dispelled every stupid fucking thing I read from the thread. Assumptions make an ass out of YOU only

Bummer, hate to see you guys stooping to name calling and attacking the critics of your idea. The angst certainly doesn't support your cause or paint you in a better light. As potential proprietors of a commercial endeavor, it will usually behoove you to rise above and show some humility. I re-read through the entire thread and most of the responses were sincere and justified criticism of a project that clearly failed to take some key factors into account. Sure, there are always a couple of jerks that jump to conclusions and go way overboard. But...umm...this is an Internet forum.

YOU ARE PUBLICLY ASKING PEOPLE FOR MONEY. Be prepared for criticism. It wasn't the initiative that was being criticized. It was the plan and the 'pitch'. It's natural that people who care about the area and are affected by such plans will speak their minds.

You'll need a thick skin and patience to make multi-hundred-thousand-dollar business endeavors succeed. Maybe you could heed some of the advice and alter your plan to seek out a lower plot of land, minimize amenities, etc. It seems hasty to fly off the handle and walk away after people have already donated money, unless, as another poster implied, there wasn't much commitment to begin with.

Kaleb Brown wrote:So we have the numbers and information to back up our this business venture. We are tentative however to disclose this information because we think it is a great idea with an even bigger potential payoff in the future. We currently do not have the property so to protect ourselves from someone that might swoop in and snag it out from under us and do the same thing we are trying to do is the reason we have not published our entire business plan.

Now that you've abandoned the project, there's no reason you shouldn't disclose all of this information. If anything, it will only help other people to pick up where you've left off, fix the mistakes that were made, and make a similar project successful. If "making a difference" and protecting the environment were your #1 concerns, I imagine you'd want to see changes made regardless of you're the ones to make them.

I just got this lovely PM from BBJerry:

Subject: Two faced piece of shit
Message: You should just admit you want to see their plan so that you can try and pick it apart. Respond to my post which made perfect sense as far as their goals and my opinion of the douche bag assumptions made by you and a couple others.

And I have received no response from Ian Stewart.

And just to let everyone know, I am not one of the founders of this project and I wouldn't have benefited financially at all from the success of this project(doubtful anyone would have personally benefited financially from this project but that is one of the grand assumptions made by many). I hadn't known these gentleman before this project began either. I was presented with their idea by my cousin and wanted to meet them to help. I have worked in the ski industry, I've been a river guide, a farmer, and worked as a wildland fire fighter. I have a keen understanding for what is sustainable and what is GOOD for the environment. These guys were open to any ideas and wanted people to constructively build this project with them. Being met with rude assumptions and zero constructive criticism wasn't exactly what they expected from the climbing community. Pretty disappointed currently

First, I'm very disappointed that you've chosen to attack people that have raised valid issues regarding the feasibility of this project at your targeted site. If you stopped viewing every person's feedback as a personal attack, you may recognize that you've been given a lot of free advice that will be relevant to any future projects.

As far as the issue of trespassing, you may have been with a Realtor (although the owner of that property questions that, as you approached him DIRECTLY, not through a Realtor), but we recognized one clip from your video (not accessible from the easement/road) as one of our favorite locations, and no one sought our permission to walk that property. However, that is a minor item. We viewed that as disrespectful.

The point is that had you approached or contacted all of the current owners (which would have been an indication that you intended to respect both the property and the other owners), you would have learned about the history of this area, accessibility, road maintenance issues, tax ramifications and our experiences with BLM. All of these issues should have been considered before selecting this site.

As far as your response regarding the "farming", that young woman is working on her PhD ON THESE ISSUES, and has been to 3rd World countries and villages helping to identify the available resources, and recommend and implement TRUE sustainable plans. So, my money is on her evaluation.

As you say, you are young, just out of college and have school debts. Both my husband and I put each other through college and have engineering degrees. We did not receive any grant money or gov't backed loans. We worked long hours, and raised our family, all while being saddled with more debt than you can imagine.

It took YEARS before we were able to consider purchasing ANYTHING that could be considered "recreational". All we asked is that you respect our rights and our privacy. Instead, you have chosen to be snotty and snide when I have tried to raise reasonable, valid issues regarding your plans.

In reading some of the feedback you've received on this site, it is obvious that you're receiving some relevant ideas/points (FREE of charge) from educated, successful individuals. Take that advice and incorporate it if and when you try such an endeavor in the future.

There's nothing wrong with having big dreams. You just need to be realistic.

Sitting watching this thread is way better than sitting around watching a soap on tv!

More crying men here than the days of our lives! ;D

It does help break up the work day!