Rope anchor builders and a tree belay

For those of you who usually build your anchors with the rope(s) what do you do with tree(s)? Sling with sewn slings? Tie large rope loops with an overhand on a bight and use as slings?

This is not my picture but has been passed around. One example of MANY different options. Experiment and find what you like.

Note: the pic the dude walked around the tree. Can't do that? Tie an 8 or alpine butterfly, what have you, on the climbers end, grab a big bite and wrap around the tree, tie off bite (8, etc) and connect to original/climber side 8, etc. One way of many...

One of many options.

Anchor as pictured is shite. Biner is tri-axley loaded and probably a third of rated strength. Angle of pull if loaded looks to be about 179 degrees at the knots.
Buy a book, hire a guide.

The Stoned Master wrote:This is not my picture but has been passed around. One example of MANY different options. Experiment and find what you like. Note: the pic the dude walked around the tree. Can't do that? Tie an 8 or alpine butterfly, what have you, on the climbers end, grab a big bite and wrap around the tree, tie off bite (8, etc) and connect to original/climber side 8, etc. One way of many...

Please for the love of God do not do this as it is pictured.

You can do this, but the distance between the butterflies has to be a lot greater.

Usually sling the tree - especially if a pine tree because I don't like getting sticky sap on my rope. Tie an alpine butterfly near my harness tie in. Clip the rope loop to the tree sling, clove to my alpine butterfly masterpoint. Adjust length as necessary.

When I do use the rope I usually walk around the tree. Finish as above.

The alpine butterfly is to isolate my tie in to make belay escape easier - just untie. (not that I've ever had to do that) Sometimes I forgo the alpine butterfly and just clove directly to the belay carabiner at my tie in.

I have also passed a bight around the tree and tied a bowline in the bight. Clip the leftover loop to close the system. Leave my end long enough so I can adjust length.

Lot's of other ways to do it, too. It's not rocket science.

BTW, I think the setup shown in that photo above would be better if the masterpoint was further away from the tree. Or if one rope loop was passed inside the other rope loop so as to girth hitch the tree. Either way would resolve any unusual loading on the carabiner.

I use rope around the tree mostly during winter when everything is frozen and tree sap isn't a problem. Otherwise, I use a double shoulder sling.

I think a lot of people don't realize this yet, but using rope as an anchor with trees or bolts or gear, the climber needs to know how to self-rescue because it actually changes the procedures (rebuild anchor, escape belays).

I usually just use a sling and clip into it w/ a clove hitch, then use the rope to extend the master point back to the edge where i want to belay from.

An easy one with less gear is to just pull up a long bight of rope, wrap the bight around the tree two or three times, and then clip the bite back to the two lines (one to you and one to your partner. You can put a knot on the bight end but it doesn't really matter much if you have a couple wraps on the tree.

Bowline!

divnamite wrote:I think a lot of people don't realize this yet, but using rope as an anchor with trees or bolts or gear, the climber needs to know how to self-rescue because it actually changes the procedures (rebuild anchor, escape belays).

It doesn't really change much at all.

In any case, rope anchor or not, anyone who climbs multi-pitch should probably be familiar with self-rescue techniques, regardless. Hanging from a standalone cord rig isn't going to magically make things easier.

Jason Kim wrote: It doesn't really change much at all. In any case, rope anchor or not, anyone who climbs multi-pitch should probably be familiar with self-rescue techniques, regardless. Hanging from a standalone cord rig isn't going to magically make things easier.

Since you are using rope as an anchor, you need to build another anchor on the same pieces or different pieces to free up the rope for descent or moving up. In the very simple example above, you need to sling the tree, build another anchor and tie yourself in, get hands free (ATC guide mode is much easier), escape belay, etc. In more complicated gear anchor, it adds more time.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use rope as anchor. I do it all the time, especially on big walls and bolted anchor routes. Butterfly, clove hitch couple of bolts, and done.

PS. You don't have to use 20' 8mm cord for anchor. There are things such as sewn slings that you can use. Easy to untie, and easy to take out.

Shralpine wrote:Bowline!

+1
So simple, fast, strong, etc. etc. Love the bowline on trees at the top of single pitch especially.

no knot.

The "No-Knot"

There's a year old discussion here mountainproject.com/v/this-…

I don't know, sounds about the same to me. Your previous post suggests that using a rope anchor requires special or more complicated self-rescue skills. I don't think that is necessarily the case. It's certainly possible to invent scenarios where a rope anchor would be less convenient, but in practical terms, I don't think it's going to make a difference in most self-rescue situations.

I'm a bit of an anchor-geek and I have spent way too much time reading books, perusing forums, and playing with different methods while hanging from a tree in my backyard. As I gain more experience, I find myself moving towards the tried-and-true methods that all these old-school hardmen have been posting up for years. I'm starting to appreciate the simplicity and maybe even increased safety of such systems.

This subject can be very intimidating to a new climber, because many of us learn through modern books, these forums, or during private guiding/courses where some of the most basic "old-school" techniques are disregarded altogether. I own five different books that focus exclusively on anchoring techniques, and I have hired a professional, accredited guide on three occasions in an effort to review techniques and gain more experience. Rope anchors are glossed over or were disregarded outright for fancier, newfangled techniques. Almost everything I've learned has been through online forums like this, as scary as that sounds.

There seems to be a prevailing myth, at least online, that a rope anchor is a complicated or obsolete rigging technique, and I don't think this is the case at all.

As someone who has learned a lot by carefully gleaning bits of good info from these forums, I suppose I'd like to try and clear up any myths about the subject.

Interesting responses, thanks ! :)

When using the tension-less hitch it seems that a knot would need to be at the very end of the bight to make sure the climber strand didn't slide the whole thing around in case there wasn't enough friction since only one strand of the bight will be loaded. But on second thought the leader should be on the other strand to mitigate that issue, so that's a neat solution !

Now which method uses the least rope?

My guess would be a large bight with an overhand used like a sling.

cellige wrote:Now which method uses the least rope? My guess would be a large bight with an overhand used like a sling.

Nope.

Walk around the tree, use a locker to clove hitch back to your belay loop, use the same locker to belay from (sorry, you have to belay like normal and not use "guide mode"). This is one loop of rope plus the clove hitch (6" or so).

If I have a nice seat right on the edge I might use this method.

Cellige, if you must use rope to build an anchor on a tree.
1. inspect the tree to make sure it's live, has enough girth and well rooted.
2. make sure tree sap is not there.
3. use rope however you like at this point. walking around it three times is no more effective than one strand of bight.

My personal preference during winter months is grab a bight of rope around the tree, clove hitch the bight onto a locking biner on my harness. This reduce the movement when the climber end is not loaded and it's easier adjustable, also, it doesn't require me to walk around the tree. You can do the same thing again for ATC Guide mode (99% of time, I belay second in guide mode).

As for old school vs new school. There are no significant advantages to anchor with rope compare to cord or slings, especially to a newbie.

In terms of speed, I'm sure all of the above methods can be perform by you in about the same amount of time. In terms of simplicity, again, using your video, using a cord or double shoulder slings on your anchors are just as simple as using the rope.

So what do you really save? The weight of cord and increase safety? On multiple routes, I always carry a cord for rescue purpose anyway. And where is the increase safety factor?

One reason people get into argument with rope anchor is because there are a million way to do it, and everyone think their way is the right one. With cord or sling, it's usually fairly standard and easily understood. For newbie, that's the right approach.

divnamite wrote:As for old school vs new school. There are no significant advantages to anchor with rope compare to cord or slings, especially to a newbie.

I guess this depends on your definition of the word significant, in this context. You're right that any of these will probably be fine in most situations.

divnamite wrote:In terms of speed, I'm sure all of the above methods can be perform by you in about the same amount of time. In terms of simplicity, again, using your video, using a cord or double shoulder slings on your anchors are just as simple as using the rope. So what do you really save? The weight of cord and increase safety? On multiple routes, I always carry a cord for rescue purpose anyway. And where is the increase safety factor? One reason people get into argument with rope anchor is because there are a million way to do it, and everyone think their way is the right one. With cord or sling, it's usually fairly standard and easily understood. For newbie, that's the right approach.

I see what you're saying. I think it would be great if someone like John Long comes out with an updated anchor book that delves into this topic in more detail. Unfortunately, most books (and guides, in my limited experience) seem to be headed in the opposite direction.

Allen Corneau wrote: Nope. Walk around the tree, use a locker to clove hitch back to your belay loop, use the same locker to belay from (sorry, you have to belay like normal and not use "guide mode"). This is one loop of rope plus the clove hitch (6" or so). If I have a nice seat right on the edge I might use this method.

Nope. Untie your Figure 8. Tie the end of the rope around the tree with a bowline. Move to the edge and use the single line to tie a clove hitch to your belay 'biner. This is 1/2 loop of rope plus the clove hitch. Heheh ;)

You no-cordalette folks are adorable.

divnamite wrote:As for old school vs new school. There are no significant advantages to anchor with rope compare to cord or slings, especially to a newbie.

I'm going to disagree - kinda - and suggest that everyone, newbies included, should be comfortable anchoring in with the rope. To a tree, to bolts, to multiple pieces of gear. Why? Because sometimes the leader uses all their slings on the pitch. Johnny "this is the only way I know how" may be seriously up the creek without his geek-a-lette set up.

Gunkiemike wrote: I'm going to disagree - kinda - and suggest that everyone, newbies included, should be comfortable anchoring in with the rope. To a tree, to bolts, to multiple pieces of gear. Why? Because sometimes the leader uses all their slings on the pitch. Johnny "this is the only way I know how" may be seriously up the creek without his geek-a-lette set up.

Well, if Johnny has his gekk-a-lette, then he got his ass covered in a shit creek.

But if you want to talk about what ifs, then there are a million things. What if you run out of biners? Maybe forget ATC? If we are to cover all the what ifs before johnny heads outside, then johnny boy will be a senior citizen before he leads his first route.

I'm in no way suggest johnny shouldn't learn more, but to suggest Johnny needs to know how to anchor with rope before he starts his climbing career is just too much. Especially when the easier to understand, and widely applicable method happens to be there.